News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by taurath on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:19PM (#14860473)
99% of the growth!!

Thoughts on anti-trust? If you're capturing every single part of the growth of a huge previously diversified market, whats the arguments against?

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by sleet on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:27PM (#14860526)
I believe its 99% of the growth in digital advertising[1], not all advertising.

[1]https://www.businessinsider.com.au/facebook-and-google-domin...

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by sillysaurus3 on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:25PM (#14860511)
It seems like it would be a disaster to break up Facebook. You can't really have more than one social network that everybody uses. Forcing everyone to split off into groups wouldn't work, to put it mildly.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by losteric on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:31PM (#14860562)
But we could have an open social network that operates outside a single company... building on the foundational principles of the internet.

These "social networks" exist because it's still too hard to setup and manage a personal website, and those sites lack the interactiveness of FB.

Imagine if everyone had their own 1-click website with glorified RSS feeds, webrtc-based chat, access control, media sharing, and standard APIs for 3p apps - plus, perhaps, a web-of-trust or some other mechanism for validating identity. All rolled into standardized APIs backed by large competitors of FB (perhaps MS/Goog/etc?).

If the ISP monopolies can be broken, perhaps all that could be hosted on a little Android-like box connected to a home ISP - your little social box, connecting you to every human on earth... always online, it caches messages from friends when your phone looses signal, p2p shares videos from friends so you can watch high quality with no load time, and automatically curates content from connected feeds (perhaps with some on-board ML).

No ads, no big brother, for pennies a month.

I know Google's ad revenue is getting eaten by FB - perhaps they would profit from something like this. Cap FB at the knees by giving people FB's functionality without the corporate data-mining/lock-in, and reap ad revenue from the increased relevance of el Goog's search.

There are similar benefits to shops, manufacturers, services, bands, etc all too. Standard information/inventory protocols, and a review system connected to those individual personal identities, could undermine Yelp and even AMZN.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit and I think it's mostly a matter of execution. There is prior art covering all of the pieces, but no one has assembled all the pieces into a compelling product (think: iPod vs prior mp3 players, FB versus the myriad of ex-competitors)... hard but tractable with the right support.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by skybrian on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:08PM (#14861210)
The biggest issue is what the rules are and how that affects the user interface.

Using email, the rule is that if someone sends you something, you own it; they could ask you to do delete it, but you can refuse. Facebook and other social networks let you edit and delete posts. Snapchat became big because you can send pictures that are automatically deleted after you view them.

Sure, you can reimplement basic message exchange in a decentralized way, but figuring out how to enforce the same rules in a decentralized system is nontrivial.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by losteric on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:59PM (#14861500)
I think RSS is a closer analogy than email, but anyway... it could be argued those rules don't really exist today.

Good snaps get stored and shared forever, everyone knows to screenshot dumb posts on FB, and there are plenty of twitter archival tools. Youtube's DRM and takedowns work OK against film pirates, but it's still easy to find many movies and redistributed personal content online.

Though I'd be curious what fraction of those instances are someone speaking without thinking, or accidentally sharing to a broader audience... the former seems PEBKAC and the latter is a solvable UX issue.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by skybrian on Thursday July 27, 2017 @07:23AM (#14864218)
Despite the exceptions and workarounds, the defaults matter for the user experience and social dynamics of an online forum.

Even on Hacker News, the various moderation features and things like being able to edit your post after publishing make a difference to how the community works. It's not only what you can get away with but also what people feel like they have a right to do.

An interesting proof of concept might be to try to create a forum like Hacker News, but using distributed software.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by losteric on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:15PM (#14876310)
I think those features are compatible with this model - RSS handles edited content just fine (clients can store the old content, but there is a canonical "latest" version).
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by nradov on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:11PM (#14860843)
The vast majority of Facebook users don't want to install and maintain a home server. A distributed social network will never take off if it requires users to purchase another dedicated piece of hardware.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by losteric on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:48PM (#14861426)
That's the point: They don't have to!

If you have protocols and software that lets someone run a social OS on their personal hardware and connected to the global network, then the walls have been broken. Any 3rd party can integrate or offer hosting.

You could also take the rabbit hole of battery improvements leading to running this on mobile devices or sending data through a distributed p2p network instead of personal HW. None of those are orthogonal to the proposal.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by tboughen on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:34PM (#14861011)
Make it run on as a part of a distributed cloud computing service on a device that consumers are paid to install and keep. Maybe its a radiator/secondary water heater too. The payment is for reduced datacentre cooling expense.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by bitmapbrother on Thursday July 27, 2017 @12:39AM (#14862753)
>I know Google's ad revenue is getting eaten by FB

No it's not.

>For the first three months of this year, Alphabet reported just over $26 billion in revenue, up 21 percent from the same period last year. Without the EU fine, it would have notched $6.87 billion in operating income, up around 15 percent from the second quarter of 2016.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by losteric on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:20PM (#14876345)
The market is growing, of course both FB and Google will keep growing for a bit - but FB's 39% (and growing) share is nothing to sneeze at. FB is a cancerous walled garden that is increasingly hostile to search engines.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by mahyarm on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:13PM (#14860858)
It turns into email with all of it's problems. And everyone will just use a gmail equivalent or whatever else they signed up with 15 years ago anyway.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by Eridrus on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:51PM (#14860687)
It doesn't necessarily need to be broken up, but if you wanted to weaken Facebook you could mandate that they made their APIs open so that social networks that wanted to spring up would be able to automatically show you content from Facebook in their UI.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by sillysaurus3 on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:59PM (#14860756)
That's a good one. I'm not sure how enforceable that would be, but in principle that'd be beneficial for competition.

There are a multitude of problems, like privacy concerns and the fact that FB would have no incentive to keep the API very up to date or reliable, but I wonder if something like that could work.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by Eridrus on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:11PM (#14860844)
I guess the Microsoft Office anti-trust rulings should be instructive here. Their monopoly is effectively broken in the sense that you can read Office documents in other software, but that hasn't really killed their business; though it did make the transition to Google Docs easier for me.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by jordanb on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:53PM (#14862324)
I'd argue that the monopoly action against Microsoft was an unqualified success, even if the consent decree ended up being weak tea.

Before the antitrust action Microsoft was knifing the baby and cutting off the air supply whenever anyone threatened their hegemony. Afterwards, a million little inroads were made that ended up making their monopoly irrelevant.

In fact the continued existence of Apple is a product of the antitrust action. Bill Gates struck the deal with Jobs in order to keep Apple alive as a "showcase competitor." If Gates didn't feel the need to keep up appearances he would have crushed Apple by ending the Office port.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by Eridrus on Thursday July 27, 2017 @09:41AM (#14865127)
The anti-trust action certainly changed Microsoft, and Microsoft has lost it's Monopoly power, I'm just not sure how closely those two are linked and what the lessons to learn are.

I feel like the thing that really hurt Microsoft the most was the web, which made the OS far less relevant and has largely been their downfall. The failure of the mobile web seems to be largely why mobile OSs do matter.

Clearly, without the anti-trust ruling Microsoft was doing all it could to make the web proprietary, but the web wasn't pre-ordained to happen, and if it hadn't we might still be locked into Windows, regardless of what the anti-trust authorities did. Or maybe we'd be largely where we are today with the web having never happened and the focus shifting to mobile anyway.

And to look at Office, I feel like the real downfall of the network effects of Office was when PDF readers became ubiquitous and embedded in browsers, so that you could export a PDF from whatever editor you were using and send it to everyone and expect that they could read it.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by Sir_Substance on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:55PM (#14860723)
>You can't really have more than one social network that everybody uses. Forcing everyone to split off into groups wouldn't work, to put it mildly.

Of course you can, you just need to have standardized protocols.

You and I can use any email provider we like, your client can use exchange to talk to it's server and mine can use a version of POP from the 80's and it /doesn't matter/ because the servers talk over a standardized protocol.

Facebook and Google used to support this. There was once a time when Facebook and Google Plus both had XMPP gateways for their real time chat traffic, which meant you could send a message from Google Plus to Facebook Messenger with no problems.

They shut it down because they both have a strong incentive to push vendor lock-in. They've been so successful that you've started to forget that life could ever be otherwise.

Take a look at projects like diaspora and mastodon. There's nothing stopping Facebook from reaching out to these projects and working with them to incorporate Facebook nodes into their network using the same protocol.

But it'll never happen, because Facebook needs the corral nice and enclosed before they can start tagging you and selling you off.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by likpok on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:08PM (#14860820)
There's a real engineering cost to federation. Your email example is a good one, I think. But digging a little deeper, what's the last major feature that got added to email? For example, we've been trying to get encryption in email for longer than WhatsApp has ever existed. WhatsApp rolled out encryption for everyone on its network last year. That's a billion people! I'd be surprised if 100 thousand people regularly used encrypted email, and even fewer used effectively encrypted email.

Social networks have been adding lots of features over the years to compete with each other. Realistically I think that fractured platforms would struggle to catch on because each provider would prioritize different features. Since social networking grows in utility superlinearly with the connectivity with your friends, features get less useful and the whole thing stagnates.

Basically: Microsoft Outlook is a social network of the kind you envision. Even Outlook for Mac versus Outlook for Windows is a sharp divide in terms of features! Do you think that people would use social networks if they looked like Outlook?

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by Sir_Substance on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @08:23PM (#14861622)
The idea that centralization leads to better UX results is demonstrably false. Popcorn Time is a great example of distributed streaming providing a considerably better UX than most commercial solutions.

Additionally, the notion that the necessity of making group decisions on a protocol must lead to stagnation is not guaranteed. There's plenty of space for Facebook, Google, LinkedIn and Twitter to form an an industry working group and make a protocol that meets their needs, and then throw it out and say "this is what we're using. Keep up or get left behind".

However, to more directly answer your concerns, there's nothing stopping Facebook from exposing basic functionality via an established and fairly firm protocol, and keeping advanced features as their competitive advantage. Textual Timeline posts, IM's and event RSVP's are good candidates for things to be exposed by the protocol. Facial tagging of images is a good example of something that a core social protocol could skip.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by brightball on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:58PM (#14860743)
They just need one viable competitor. That's the crux of it.

They need something on the other side of the "or" in "Uses Facebook or ..."

They do their best to buy anybody that sneaks in there.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by anth1988 on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:56PM (#14861481)
> They just need one viable competitor

I'm not convinced that is sufficient. Facebook at 80% isn't really any different than facebook at 99, or whatever. Google has a viable competitor in Bing, but google still dominates search to a massive degree.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by brightball on Friday July 28, 2017 @11:20AM (#14874865)
I don't disagree, but it's more like having a viable alternative in the background that gets relatively popular and stable.

As long as it's there, then if there's every a major ball drop on Facebook's part that makes a lot of people want to switch to something else they'll have somewhere to go. When people moved to Facebook from MySpace it was driven by a lot of issues with MySpace that pushed people away.

Something like this past year's election with all of the controversy over how the trending news was handled could have promoted a movement of "Enough, I'm done. Going to X." Enough "me too's" and you start a trend.

A lot of that happened with Instagram. People wanted a place they could go free of political rants and Instagram largely provided that...and Facebook owns them.

You've seen a lot of "quitting Facebook" trends this year and I believe that it's largely a result of lack of a viable alternative.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by jdavis703 on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:32PM (#14861350)
Sure you can break Facebook up without destroying the Facebook.com social network. Facebook's dev tools and infrastructure (including Oculus) is spun off into a developer tools focused company. Facebook advertising is spun off into a separate "ad agency." Facebook.com can be this new ad agency's launch customer, but they're free to add their ads to other sites such as Twitter. Instagram and Whatsapp are spun off into separate entities.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by huac on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:28PM (#14860528)
but they can break out instagram/whatsapp
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by heurist on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:29PM (#14860544)
They could be the global distributor for individual companies operating different regions, like a franchise but without regional providers existing under one corporate umbrella. That could open the market to competing distributors and regional operators.

Unlikely and less efficient but that could be one way to handle it.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by king07828 on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:06PM (#14860806)
Split it into Facebook back-end, Facebook Red, FB Green, and FB Blue. FB back-end is the current back-end. The Red, Green, and Blue are separate front end that all have equal access to the back-end so a user of FB Red can friend a user of FB Blue. FB Red, Blue, and Green compete with each other on prices they charge to advertisers and can change their user interface to compete for users. Any user can use any one of FB R, G, or B and to get full access, but with their preferred UI
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by taurath on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:30PM (#14860548)
That's a good point - how could one even break it up? It depends on the network effect to get revenue from the ad platform. Maybe all the acquisitions or something - it's all so intertwined. Instead of it being a cable company, its more like "TV" as a whole.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by ouid on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:52PM (#14860695)
I don't even think it's clear that it would be a disaster to completely outlaw facebook.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by tedunangst on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:03PM (#14860782)
How would you write such legislation that doesn't also outlaw Reddit?
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by nothrabannosir on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:06PM (#14860803)
You'd write "Facebook".
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by taneq on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:56PM (#14861480)
At which point the freshly rebranded BookFace would continue as usual.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by tedunangst on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @06:22PM (#14860918)
Pesky Constitution always getting in the way.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by rconti on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:02PM (#14861180)
Calling Facebook a religion is a bit much
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by lwf on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @11:31PM (#14862492)
OP was referring to freedom of speech, I assume?
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by tedunangst on Thursday July 27, 2017 @12:43AM (#14862770)
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by lmm on Thursday July 27, 2017 @07:24AM (#14864223)
Bills of Attainder were against humans. Limited liability corporations exist by consent of the state and the state has no obligation to grant them new charters or continued use of their existing one.

Facebook could continue operating as a partnership - that would be much harder to stop - but they might not want to given the liability implications.

Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by SystemOut on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:29PM (#14860539)
It's FB and GOOG that account for 99% of growth, not just FB.
Re:Facebook Profit Jumps 71% Year-over-Year by inetknght on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:30PM (#14860555)
Typical arguments over the past 30 years seem to be "it's in the best interest of the consumer".

Next thing you know, Facebook and Google end up merging.

Please knock on some wood for me.