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Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by dmitrygr on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:00PM (#14851809)
Good. This should help bring some sanity and accountability. they were both quite needed
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by oneplane on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:18PM (#14851941)
Why? Nobody is forcing crypto currenency on anyone. I get that registered companies might have some other deal with the govenment and with hacker organisations, but a free and open (and non-country-bound) system should really not be 'managed' by some random organisation in a random country.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by SolarNet on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:47PM (#14852168)
The SEC exists to prevent fraud. It's about people having a choice between truthful investments. These companies are allowed to operate as they claim they are with relatively little oversight. What the SEC regulates is a company claiming they will use investment to do X and then the company does Y or keeps it for themselves. Which is also known as fraud. Like the DEA (an example of something unjust), Secret Service, and ATF, the SEC is a specialized branch of law enforcement.

What these personal choice fundamentalists forget is that lying is wrong. And when you lie about what you are going to do with someone's money, that's a form of theft, e.g. fraud.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by clarky07 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:03PM (#14852597)
And that's why hundreds of bankers went to jail after the financial crisis. oh wait, no, that didn't happen.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by SolarNet on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:40PM (#14852984)
Because it was legal. Congress repealed the law that said those actions were illegal and so it wasn't...

Checks and balances and all that: elect better representatives.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by dmitrygr on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:22PM (#14851973)
Same reason SEC exists. Because many people are easy to manipulate, and plenty of malicious people out there will convince (not force) them to invest in their ICO, etc.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:26PM (#14852018)
Then we should limit who people can vote for, since voters are so easy to manipulate into voting against their own interests. The basic principles of liberal democracy assume that a person has an absolute right to make decisions for their own life. These kinds of restrictions are unconscionable restrictions on the right of free people to their personal autonomy.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by cheetos on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:51PM (#14852202)
There is simply a massive difference between the theory of democracy and its actual implementation. Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or not based on your age. Which food you can buy at the supermarket. What you are allowed to see on television. Where and when you may protest. What behavior is allowed in public and what is not. What speech is considered 'free' and what isn't. What machines you may operate and under what circumstances. Which financial transactions you may or may not participate in and the terms of those transactions. The type of home you build and it's specifications. Which countries you may or may not enter and under which circumstances. Whether you are allowed to work or not. It's just the way things are.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by stale2002 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:05PM (#14853068)
Yeah, it is just the way thing are.

And till now, you had no other option.

But it looks like things are changing with regards to finance.

Because now, it is going to be much more difficult for the government to regulate your financial activities.

The "way things are" is changing, and changing for the better.

Don't like it? Then the government can send in its men with guns and attempt to stop it.

The technology is getting better and better, though. So it will soon become extremely difficult for those men with guns to do anything at all with your untraceable, untraceable, and unstoppable financial activities.

May the best group win. The government will need all the luck it can get.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:54PM (#14852222)
>Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or not based on your age. Which food you can buy at the supermarket.

These restrictions violate people's basic rights and are to the material detriment of society at large. The more of a regulatory burden is placed on an industry, the more dysfunctional, bureaucratic and nepotistic it is.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by jpetso on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:45PM (#14852504)
Basic rights are defined by various charters, constitutions, international agreements, and that's about it. If you find that one of those restrictions contradicts the ones applicable to your country and legal system, you have a good shot at changing it. (Point in case: gay marriage, and other Supreme Court rulings.)

As for all other rights, those are determined by the government that is democratically voted in. If most people, via their elected representatives, decide that you shouldn't be allowed to speed, or smoke crack, and it's not constitutionally guaranteed, then it's not a basic right and it's not your right at all. Maybe moral right, but that depends on highly subjective morals and might therefore still get you into legal trouble.

Best course of action is probably to find a country with a legal framework that matches your morals. If there's no such country, perhaps the time for these ideas hasn't come and you want to lobby for them to be recognized as basic rights, since right now they're obviously not.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:39PM (#14852778)
>Maybe moral right, but that depends on highly subjective morals and might therefore still get you into legal trouble.

We're intelligent human beings. We should be able to arrive at some kind of consensus on what our moral rights our, through rational discourse. That's what I'm trying to do right now. My argument starts with what "the law" means:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/enforci...

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by jpetso on Thursday July 27, 2017 @12:12PM (#14866636)
> We should be able to arrive at some kind of consensus on what our moral rights our, through rational discourse.

In the commonly used sense of the term, the scope of morals by far exceeds what you'll get even reasonable people to agree upon. "Rational discourse" means that you need enough of an uncontroversial set of base facts that either party is willing to work with. I don't think we have enough of those to derive a single valid system of morals without injecting other, subjective, more controversial opinions in the process.

Say, you have a basic statement such as "All people should be equal", something that most can agree with. By itself, this isn't actionable, and won't determine how to handle a situation unambiguously. You could come up with a libertarian doctrine that all people should be given the same treatment regardless of their background or current situation, or you could come up with a socialist doctrine that disadvantaged people should get extra support to balance out unequal origins and misfortune. Or anything in between. None of these can be rationally discarded, because there's not enough source data to come to any conclusion to begin with. If you attempt to expand the set of source data, you will find many who disagree with you. That's why it's subjective.

That said, trying to distill what basic facts we do have, so that they can be worked with in a constructive fashion, is a commendable goal. Good luck!

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by cheetos on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:58PM (#14852249)
I truly hope that human drivers' "right" to drive at whatever speed they want is forever trampled by regulatory burden.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:05PM (#14852302)
You do not have a right to speed on public property because others share ownership in it, and thus have a legitimate right to contribute to the rules that govern its use. If you owned your own private track, you would have such a right.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by brett40324 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:58PM (#14852571)
I second "It's just the way things are".
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by vkou on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:30PM (#14852043)
We aren't allowed to murder people either, but for some reason, most of us don't consider that to be the antithesis of liberal democracy.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:34PM (#14852081)
The basic principle of liberal democracy is that we have an absolute right to personal autonomy unless we violate other people's equal right to the same.

Making it illegal to offer a digital token for sale to other consenting adults, without approval from a central authority, is unconscionable.

Before endorsing yet another law that restricts our right to engage in voluntary interactions, consider this: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/enforci...

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by chowells on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:54PM (#14852224)
You interfere with my right to personal autonomy by bankrupting yourself throwing good money after bad in stupid investments, leaving yourself destitute and in need of additional public services.

Or do you also intend to claim that the poor should be allowed to die on the streets as punishment for not being rich?

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:57PM (#14852240)
No one has a right to force you to support someone who made themselves destitute. You're using one infringement of personal autonomy to justify another.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by ericd on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:13PM (#14852647)
In which case I assume you're of the "taxes are an infringement on freedom" camp of extreme libertarian?
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:21PM (#14852685)
I don't believe all taxes are an infringement on freedom. A tax on natural resource consumption, and to a lesser extent, immovable property within a state's jurisdiction, can be morally justified in my opinion. I also don't have a problem with a head tax, conditioned on the punishment for noncompliance being exile, rather than imprisonment. A tax on private transactions is an infringement on liberty in my opinion.

On that note, it's interesting that the first 'War on Drugs' used taxes on private transactions as its avenue to prohibition. Since the government at the time didn't have the Constitutional authority (this is before the Supreme Court was utterly corrupted by politics) to outright ban drugs, what it did instead is require that all targeted drugs pay a stamp tax, and then simply refuse to issue the stamp. This shows the prohibitive nature of taxes on private transactions.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by PKop on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:36PM (#14852972)
These same people disagreeing with you would bend over backwards to decry the war on drugs for the same reasons you're articulating in this case..
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by darawk on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:46PM (#14852162)
Trying to protect everyone all the time from everything quashes innovation. I've lost money in ICOs. I lost money in the DAO, too. I'd lose that money 10x over again to prevent the SEC from squashing this nascent space like this.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by subverter on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:31PM (#14852047)
Should not the individual be held responsible for making a poor decision? Taking the stance that we should be protected from every possible bad thing that can happen is a recipe for economic disaster. Especially when the one offering such protection is the one that manipulates us the most.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by tptacek on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:42PM (#14852131)
Is there some way we can just replace these kinds of threads with a link to some canonical thread about why the concept of security laws is fundamentally unjust or unwise? This discussion really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by sillysaurus3 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:48PM (#14852815)
This discussion really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

It's possible to veer off-topic in a substantive way. Some of the more interesting HN comments have been spawned that way.

Whether subsequent comments will be high-quality depends on the topic and the amount of energy thrown into the conversation, but fresh perspectives are good as long as people are introducing them productively.

Threads like this shouldn't be auto-collapsed. One of the main reasons people write quality responses in an off-topic conversation is because it will be seen. Take away the eyeballs and you take away the quality.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by PKop on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:37PM (#14852976)
Then go somewhere else. Why do you get to declare what is valid as discussion or isn't? If people are engaging in the discussion, obviously they value it.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by SolarNet on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:47PM (#14852173)
Because not everyone agrees with you?
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by kasey_junk on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:52PM (#14852207)
He's suggesting that arguing whether SEC law being just/constitutional/what have you. Regardless of your position, is largely off topic for these posts.

It would be better to just link to the argument somewhere else than derailing this one.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by SolarNet on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:52PM (#14852210)
Except he implied that the link should have a significant bias. Also there is a collapse button.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by tptacek on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:58PM (#14852255)
It should auto-collapse threads like the one upthread about whether the SEC is fundamentally unjust.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by tptacek on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:49PM (#14852186)
That's an answer to someone's question, but a non-sequitur answer to mine.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by SolarNet on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:50PM (#14852196)
> with a link to some canonical thread about why the concept of security laws is fundamentally unjust or unwise

Because not everyone agrees with that position.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by tedunangst on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:39PM (#14852473)
I suspect tptacek is aware that not everyone thinks security laws are fundamentally unjust.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by tptacek on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:58PM (#14852247)
You're still not there yet. Replace "canonical thread about" with "link to a debate about".
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by SolarNet on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:38PM (#14852980)
I'm quoting you... you are arguing with your own words!
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by taysic on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:27PM (#14852717)
I remember after the ethereum flash crash how many people were saying "screw decentralization, I'm getting a lawyer". Those sort of values go out the window when the person who loses, loses a lot. The laws are in place for the benefit of all
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by julian_1 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:56PM (#14852849)
The flash crash on GDAX? That was the non-decentralized code of a single exchange executing.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by armenarmen on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:24PM (#14851998)
There's no room for buyer beware? I mean c'mon. People participating in ICOs are still pretty sophisticated technically. Seems like we're regulating interactions between well informed consenting adults.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by xorcist on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:42PM (#14852128)
Every one of these scams that have imploded, including the DAO itself, have had participants crying out for interventions. That should speak volumes about the amount of consent involved (and indeed the sophistication).
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by maneesh on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:05PM (#14852306)
Citations? I know of maybe 5-10 coins that have been hacked or imploded in a fraudulent way due to the intrinsic nature of the coin, out of thousands created
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by Jabanga on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:51PM (#14852827)
There are hundreds of projects that have held token sales. The vast majority have not imploded.

For what it's worth, I think the majority will fail to produce a profit. That's okay. A high failure rate is fine in an emerging industry. Venture capitalists can easily tolerate 90% failure rates for example.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by julian_1 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:04PM (#14852873)
The business case may have been questionable, but the DAO was not prima facie a scam. It lost value and mission due to poor technical implementation.
Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by vkou on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:28PM (#14852034)
How familiar are you with the history of securities laws? Do you know why they were drafted?

Every con artist in history has claimed that their mark knew what they were getting into.

Re:SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset,... by armenarmen on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:33PM (#14852068)
DAOs and the JOBS act for sure open up opportunities for crooks to do some "boiler-maker-esque" stuff. I cannot disagree with that. And I do not doubt that gullible people can be hoodwinked by bad people. I would say that fraud and property theft can be handled on a case by case basis. That protecting hypothetical gullible crypto enthusiasts at the expense of the entire industry and putting up huge legal barriers to entry is the wrong move.