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Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by Typhon on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:09PM (#14844227)
"Linguists are undecided about Esperanto"

Indifferent would be a better word.

In any case, Esperanto has no feature which set it apart from other European languages, whether in lexicon (obviously) or in grammar, it is thoroughly european (as demonstrated in great detail here : http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/ )

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by colanderman on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:55PM (#14844751)
The article isn't about linguistic properties. It's about the uptake of Esperanto literature and culture throughout Asia. (Yes, Esperanto has a culture.)
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by Typhon on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:07PM (#14851858)
Maybe so, but why include the sentence I quoted, then ?
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by vacri on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:40PM (#14844392)
It's bizarre that every intro to Esperanto seems to find it important to note that it was created by an oculist.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by taneq on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:43PM (#14844406)
It's common to note an innovator's profession if it's not something you'd expect, given their innovation.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by schoen on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:20PM (#14844584)
Yes, and maybe people are excited to have a reason to use the word "oculist"!
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by Bakary on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @08:24AM (#14855574)
I'm excited to read it.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by dghughes on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:08PM (#14844817)
HN is anti-pun so I won't say it.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by fizixer on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:27PM (#14844334)
> Esperanto has no feature which set it apart from other European languages.

Do you know why it was created? To have one language for communication for the whole world unencumbered by historical baggage of politico-cultural domineering (e.g., prevalence of english due to British imperialism). (among other reasons).

That right there is a feature that sets it apart from all natural languages (other than the created ones like Klingon, Lojban, etc) not just European.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by jcranmer on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:20PM (#14844580)
> Do you know why it was created? To have one language for communication for the whole world unencumbered by historical baggage of politico-cultural domineering (e.g., prevalence of english due to British imperialism). (among other reasons).

Which is actually quite a farce. Esperanto is largely a language that's vaguely Slavic in grammar and strongly Polish in phonology, with vocabulary largely derived from Slavic, Romance, and Germanic languages. In other words, Esperanto is a "world language" that comes from a time where "world" meant "Europe", and it largely assumes that Indo-European language peculiarities are fairly universal in languages (they're not).

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by madcaptenor on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:29AM (#14847539)
From John Cowan's list of "Essentialist Explanations", credited to Kapitano Eglefino (http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan/essential.html#Esperanto): "Esperanto is essentially English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Latin, and Greek, invented by someone who speaks English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian, Latin, Greek...and Polish." --
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by akvadrako on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:55AM (#14846466)
This is just bullshit. What makes you think Zamenhof thought "world" meant "Europe" or didn't know about asian languages?
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by dragonwriter on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:42PM (#14844683)
> To have one language for communication for the whole world unencumbered by historical baggage of politico-cultural domineering

Unfortunately, Esperanto bears a lot of that baggage, despite it's intent.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by SimbaOnSteroids on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:10PM (#14844835)
We should all just speak a flavor of python and be done with it.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by grasleya on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:27PM (#14844900)
The universe will end before we can decide on 2.7 or 3.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by phewvvg on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:22AM (#14846335)
'import babelfish'
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by dotancohen on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:50AM (#14845405)

  p = multiprocessing.Process(target=decide, args=(2.7,3,))
  p.start()
  sys.exit()
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by SimbaOnSteroids on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @08:18AM (#14855514)
Your variable naming triggers me good sir.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by macintux on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:34PM (#14844366)
I'm not confident that the reason for something's existence can be objectively described as a feature.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:45PM (#14844419)
Yeah, but it fails at its objective when considered outside a European context.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by chch on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:54PM (#14844468)
That's one of the things I like about the auxiliary language Interlingua[1] over Esperanto[2]. To quote from Wikipedia:

"Interlingua has detached itself from the movement for the development and introduction of a universal language for all humanity. Whether or not one believes that a language for all humanity is possible, whether or not one believes that Interlingua will become such a language is totally irrelevant from the point of view of Interlingua itself. The only fact that matters (from the point of view of Interlingua itself) is that Interlingua, thanks to its ambition of reflecting the cultural and thus linguistic homogeneity of the West, is capable of rendering tangible services at this precise moment in the history of the world. It is by its present contributions and not by the promises of its adherents that Interlingua wishes to be judged."

It was created with a goal of taking its structure and vocabulary from other common European (mostly Romance) languages, which means if one is familiar with those languages, they can already decently read Interlingua. The same passage from above, for those who might know some Romance language:

"Interlingua se ha distachate ab le movimento pro le disveloppamento e le introduction de un lingua universal pro tote le humanitate. Si o non on crede que un lingua pro tote le humanitate es possibile, si o non on crede que interlingua va devenir un tal lingua es totalmente indifferente ab le puncto de vista de interlingua mesme. Le sol facto que importa (ab le puncto de vista de interlingua mesme) es que interlingua, gratias a su ambition de reflecter le homogeneitate cultural e ergo linguistic del occidente, es capace de render servicios tangibile a iste precise momento del historia del mundo. Il es per su contributiones actual e non per le promissas de su adherentes que interlingua vole esser judicate."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua

[2] Not that I've actually studied either, for full disclosure.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by int_19h on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:53PM (#14845006)
For the curious, there's a similar take on Slavic languages called Slovio.

http://www.slovio.com/

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by ajuc on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @03:03AM (#14845717)
Yeah, there were many such attempts in Slavic world. It gives you uncomfortable 80% understanding, while just speaking your own languages gives you like 60% between most pairs. Not good enough to make people use it.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by int_19h on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:34PM (#14851608)
From my personal experience as a native Slavic speaker in other countries, this doesn't work well across groups - i.e. if my language is East Slavic, and my interlocutor speaks West or South Slavic, we can't really get far; certainly nowhere even close to 60%.

But, yes, with English being the de facto standard, these more localized attempts are becoming redundant - you want to know English anyway because you want to talk to more people, and once you know it, you might as well use it to talk even to people whose languages are related to yours.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by ajuc on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @05:31AM (#14854745)
I'm Polish, and with Slovaks, Belarussians, Ukrainians it's more than 60%. With Czechs it's maybe 50% cause of their pronounciation, with Russians it's maybe 40-50%, because they have weird word roots.

Maybe it's because I'm vaguely aware of the phonetic changes between east and west Slavic languages (ić - it, ska - skaja, etc), because I've heard some Russian and Ukrainian on street markets in 90s.

Haven't had much experience with other Slavic speakers, but Serbian sounds quite close to western Slavic from the songs I've heard.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by FRex on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:43AM (#14846658)
There is also Interslavic that continues from Old Church Slavonic: http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/

I natively know Polish and I know some very little Russian back from high school and Interslavic is more clear to me than Slovio.

I'm interested in linguistics so during one CS conference in Zagreb I asked a few Czechs, Croats, Slovaks, Slovenians, one Belarusian (native in Russian actually but he knew some Belarusian) and back in Poland a few Poles who know only Polish and the results were quite mixed.

It really might be better to just treat this as a curio and speak your own (especially in your own West/East/South Slavic language subgroup) and hope for the best. Or just speak English...

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by BoiledCabbage on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:37PM (#14844659)
At that point you might as well just speak a Spanish/Italian mashup.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by geofft on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:20AM (#14845102)
I learned French in high school and not Spanish (thanks to growing up in southern Louisiana), and I can't read Spanish or Italian texts unless I'm extraordinarily lucky about vocabulary, but I can read Interlingua just fine. I suspect I'd be hopelessly lost in an ad-hoc mashup of Spanish and Italian, but Interlingua is pretty good about constraining vocabulary to things that are usually obvious to a speaker of any Romance language and not adopting shifts that have only taken place in one / a few languages.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:08PM (#14844816)
I mean, yes, that's basically what this is but it tries to go for words that are in at least 3 (I think?) romance languages.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by cabalamat on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:36AM (#14846149)
This has been done, it's called Interlingua (de IALA, to disambiguate it from the other conlang csalled Interlingua).
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:36PM (#14844654)
Yeah, I can basically understand texts written in interlingua.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by bshimmin on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:14AM (#14846055)
I can understand the above paragraph too (from a background in English/Italian/Latin/school-level French), but I can't say there's anything beautiful about it!
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:22AM (#14847493)
Beauty isn't really the goal here.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by colanderman on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:07PM (#14844812)
Why do you say that? Esperanto has actually been relatively successful in Asia (as the article details). Yes, its grammar and lexicon are unrelated to any east Asian languages, but it is nonetheless easy to learn, to the point that it is sometimes used pedagogically as a "first European language" in Chinese universities.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:09PM (#14844827)
In the sense that it is way easier for native speakers of Europeans to learn than for native speakers of languages such as Asian languages I don't think it actually succeeds in the goal of decolonizing, if you will, the lingua franca.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by neltnerb on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:26AM (#14845302)
To be fair, a huge fraction already learn solid basic English as the local lingua franca due to differing dialects or international trade.

I don't know though, what features from Asian languages do you think are objectively simpler to learn than those in Esperanto? I don't know Esperanto, but I am pretty sure that not all Asian languages are particularly tonal. So I doubt that would come naturally to them either. Particles? Those are pretty fantastic, but does Esperanto already have them? Maybe a lack of gendered conjugations? Or just no conjugations at all and instead a separate word modifier or particle for different contexts?

Certainly the syllabary of Japanese is wonderful, I think it's better than English. Every consonant except 'n' has a vowel after, every vowel sounds the same regardless of context. Removing the distinction between 'r' and 'l' or 'm' and 'n' seems wise though. But maybe they already did that too?

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:17AM (#14847461)
There is no such thing as "objectively easy." Languages are easy or difficult in the degree to which they share common features and vocabulary with a language you already know. If you speak Spanish as a native language then English is much easier to learn than Japanese, but if you speak Korean as a native language the opposite is true.

You might well answer that, in that case, being truly neutral seems more or less impossible. Maybe so, and maybe you do need to just pick something. But then we get away from the idea of removing political dominance from the equation.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by Chris_Jay on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @11:10AM (#14848274)
I disagree with your opening argument. Python is objectively easier to learn than c, no matter which one has learned first. In my own experience, I learned Esperanto at about 10X the rate at which I learned French (though this was also due to teacher quality). Esperanto has no irregular verbs, unambiguous pronunciations, and only a quarter of the usual vocabulary to learn because nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs all share identical roots. Being a native English speaker I did know similar roots more often, but no more so than I did for French.

The only place where I would agree Europeans have a significant advantage is that Esperanto has a European style letter script rather than an Asian character-based one. A fair point, and unfortunately no one has come up with something halfway between a letter and a character script. The best apolitical solution to that may be to make two alphabets for the next iteration of Esperanto.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:46PM (#14849309)
OK, so you've proved that Esperanto is easier than a natural European language for you, a native speaker of English, to learn. Granted. But it's not a refutation of my argument that for someone who speaks, say, Japanese (also a language with almost no irregular verbs or ambiguous pronunciations, by the way), essentially none of the roots will be familiar and so it will still be much more difficult for them than for you.

The script is not really an issue; Chinese is the only major east Asian language (or language family) written exclusively in Chinese characters without a phonetic script, and even then the Roman alphabet is familiar.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by D-Coder on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:29PM (#14862234)
Esperanto is certainly easier for someone who already knows a Romance language. However, even for a non-Romance speaker, it will be easier to learn than other Romance languages.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Thursday July 27, 2017 @09:14AM (#14864901)
Sure, but what I am saying here is that if you don't speak a European language any Romance language, even Esperanto, is hard.

It's easy to not appreciate this, but in a way the hardest thing about learning a language is mastering the vocabulary. Think about your native language. When was he last time you encountered a grammatical structure you were unfamiliar with? Now when was the last time you encountered a word you were unfamiliar with?

If you're studying two related languages, like Spanish and English, you get a huge boost from the fact that the more difficult words are actually more likely to be the same. You don't have to study very hard to understand what "planeta" or "geografía" or "farmacia" mean. On the other hand, if you're studying Japanese, you have to memorize words like "wakusei," "chiri", and "yakkyoku" which have no resemblance whatever to the English words. And it just goes on and on and you are never really done encountering all the words you will ever encounter. Compared to this slog, mastering a grammar and the number of irregularities typical of a natural language is a minor annoyance.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by tormeh on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:14PM (#14851457)
>There is no such thing as "objectively easy." Languages are easy or difficult in the degree to which they share common features and vocabulary with a language you already know.

That's just wrong. All that means is that you haven't experienced all the crazy language features out there. Children all over the world learn their native languages at different speeds because some languages are harder than others.

I guess your statement is technically correct in that if you already know a really difficult language, learning it is easy, but that's just pedantry.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @07:50AM (#14855366)
That's false, unless you want to bring writing into the picture. As far as the language itself (that is, the spoken one) goes it's completely wrong.

I'm going by the (admittedly, introductory) education I had in linguistics, so if you'd like to convince me otherwise I suppose I would need to see some sort of reliable source.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by neltnerb on Saturday August 05, 2017 @06:21PM (#14938249)
Why do you not think it is reasonable to assume a language with fewer requirements to utilize is easier for a human to learn in general?

If a language avoids relying on tonal information for word definition, for instance, it is very counterintuitive to say that a toddler learning would pick it up exactly as fast as a toddler that only needs to handle syllable identification.

Way more languages, including Asian ones like Japanese and Korean, do not have words which completely change definition based on pitch. I don't have any reason to think a Korean adult would find it any easier than me to detect tones in Mandarin.

I don't know how to search for a reliable source in the field of linguistics, sorry. The idea is really counterintuitive for me though. It's not like Chinese and Japanese are very similar, even if they're more likely to broadly share word roots. Assuming we aren't using pictograph writing anyway, they do share a lot of those.

But if you're going to argue that learning pictograph writing is exactly as easy as learning character writing, I'll direct you to how Japanese kids only can read 1000 characters by the time they're 12. With syllabic writing you can read anything way sooner. So clearly for written language some are easier than others too.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by SerLava on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:22AM (#14845284)
Well, Chinese is a very cool language but it's awful for keyboard input and the like. Ideally we'd use a language with an alphabet that also isn't tonal.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by colanderman on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:33PM (#14849897)
Surely an explicitly tonal alphabet is preferable to a language with implicit tone (e.g. English). I can only imagine that learning English's implicit tone curves pose a challenge to speakers of Asian languages.

(Esperanto is intended to be perfectly understandable without tonal inflection, through the use of particles such as "ĉu" and "ja", though in practice Westerners universally tonally inflect their speech because they don't know otherwise.)

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Friday July 28, 2017 @12:10AM (#14871898)
What? Who has a tonal alphabet? Why would annotating tone in a non tonal language be helpful?
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by FRex on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:44AM (#14846664)
What's wrong with Chinese input using a decent IME actually?
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by restalis on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:15PM (#14849665)
I wish I could say that people are lazy and Chinese is fine if only one can employ the right tools for it, but the thing is, the Chinese writing, through its inherent nature, imposes a heavy cognitive load on its users. In this regard it is comparable to English, which does the same thing through its vocabulary. Many are criticizing the inflections in a given inflected language but that is actually a trick to lessen/optimize the language's vocabulary. The language and writing are communication infrastructure. The less we're paying for using those and the less they are getting in your way - the better.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:11AM (#14847419)
It's much slower than a skilled alphabetical typist can do. In Japanese, and I assume also in Chinese, there is a faster system used by people who do jobs that require fast typing, but it's very complicated and most people do not learn it.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by FRex on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @10:12AM (#14847818)
What is that Japanese system?
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by yorwba on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @10:58AM (#14848176)
For Chinese there's the Wubi method [1], which assigns each radical component of a character to a key, by typing the right combination of keys for some of the components, individual strokes and disambiguation keys, any Chinese character can be almost uniquely identified (some typographic variants have identical representations).

I'm currently trying to learn it, because I hate scrolling through long lists of homophones to find some rarer character; but I have not yet achieved the level where I can just freely type out anything without looking up its key sequence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_method

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @10:25AM (#14847924)
Sorry, it's been a while since I read about it and I'm having trouble finding the info again. I imagine it's similar to the stroke-based Chinese entry systems because each character would then have an unambiguous key sequence, obviating the need to keep checking the screen and selecting words from the menu.

e: Actually I found some info here: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97%E7%9B%B4%E6...

It looks like some systems are T-Code, TUT-code, etc.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by akvadrako on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:50AM (#14846442)
This is wrong, but it certainly gets repeated a lot; Esperanto is still the easiest secondary language for Asian speakers to learn.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by emodendroket on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:12AM (#14847426)
Easier than neighboring languages sharing thousands of words with common roots? I think I would need to see some sort of evidence to accept this claim.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by microcolonel on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:49PM (#14844446)
The problem is that it has a bizarre phonetic inventory for an IAL.

That said, I think people overblow the significance of choosing a European base over some other. I know people whose native languages are syllabaries, abugidas, and logographies; most of them prefer even the supremely flawed English alphabetic writing system.

Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by jefurii on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:13AM (#14845075)
I can't cite anything to back this up, but Esperanto is a lot easier for native Japanese speakers to pronounce than English is, plus the grammar is more regular.
Re:Esperanto as an Asian language by mallaidh on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:36PM (#14844379)
That has nothing to do with aspects considered in the context of linguistics, however.