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Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by anoother on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:25PM (#14844002)
Serious question -- why not? What makes this a bad idea?
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by jlebar on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:37PM (#14844071)
Because automated weaving makes clothes a lot cheaper.

Put another way, when workers become more efficient -- one factory worker able to control many weaving machines, or a relatively small group of programmers able to control many cars -- people's standard of living increases.

Maybe you're willing to pay more for clothes, or transportation, or any one thing. But paying more for all of the things that have gotten cheaper due to increases in efficiency since time X is tantamount to going back to the standard of living of time X.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by nashashmi on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:03PM (#14844508)
What's the point of making things cheaper when it centers the wealth on just a few owners? When there are lots of workers working low income jobs versus just a few workers working high income jobs, it creates a healthier more distributed economy.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by tomhoward on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @02:34AM (#14845598)
An estimated 2.3 Billion people now own smartphones. That number is growing at about 10% per year. All those people have access to the sum of all human knowledge and the ability to educate themselves almost as well as (some would argue even better than) the students of the most expensive universities.

They can communicate with anyone else at almost zero marginal cost, and can sell products and services to basically anyone else on the planet. All because things keep getting cheaper.

That's the point of making things cheaper.

Sure, a consequence of that is that the founders and executives and financiers of Google, Samsung, Apple etc are wildly rich. And that means they can (and do) invest in new products and services to keep improving peoples' standard of living, as well as funding benevolent projects.

It's pretty amazing if you ask me.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by dorian-graph on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @02:59AM (#14845705)
> All those people have access to the sum of all human knowledge and the ability to educate themselves almost as well (some would argue even better) than students of the most expensive universities. They can communicate with anyone at almost no marginal cost, and can sell products and services to basically anyone else on the planet.

Is this even happening though?

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by tomhoward on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @03:25AM (#14845806)
Out of Coursera's 18 million registered learners, 1.3 million are from India with top registered learners hailing from Bengaluru, Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai and Hyderabad, the website said today.

Driven by the vast interest coming from Bengaluru, technology hub, nearly half of enrollments in the country are in technology courses such as computer science (25 per cent) and data science (18 per cent).

- http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/services/educat...

Top Freelancing countries on Elance:

India $312,865,112/649,566 freelancers

United States $310,023,579/1,123,935 freelancers

Ukraine $72,429,514/29,341 freelancers

Pakistan $71,061,107/176,011 freelancers

United Kingdom $35,320,646/126,670 freelancers

Canada $31,379,228/85,639 freelancers

Romania $28,062,831/44,305 freelancers

Russia $27,416,743/21,045 freelancers

Philippines $18,261,489/178,725 freelancers

Argentina $17,796,295

China $17,518,704/28,752 freelancers

Serbia $13,600,638/18,577 freelancers

Bangladesh $11,092,326/66,970 freelancers

https://www.elance.com/trends/talent-available/geo#GeoRankin...

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by nashashmi on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:59AM (#14847328)
And when you try net income per person, you get:

   Ukraine  $2,468.54 
   Russia  $1,302.77 
   Serbia  $732.12 
   Romania  $633.40 
   China  $609.30
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by tomhoward on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @09:38AM (#14847590)
Thanks, I'm capable of using a calculator :D

There will naturally be a distribution of incomes among those people, with some people earning little or nothing, and some people earning a lot.

The point is that whatever the income a given person is earning, that is income that was unavailable to them before modern computing and communications devices became affordable to them.

That's money that people are using to build better lives for themselves, their families and their communities.

As I said, that is the point of making things cheaper.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by closeparen on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:16AM (#14845082)
The point is that it delivers real, tangible quality-of-life factors, which typically matter more to someone's well-being than his feelings about aggregate wealth inequality.

I could stick it to the rich bastards who own energy stocks, but I'd rather be warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by alasdair_ on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @03:58AM (#14845970)
If wealth was a zero-sum game, thia would make sense. Fortunately, it's possible to create new wealth so that everyone is better off, even if some get richer than others relatively.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by robotjosh on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:55PM (#14844469)
If things have gotten cheaper, why does everything in a 1917 sears catalog, adjusted for inflation, look so inexpensive? Solid metal tools used to cost less than the modern walmart plastic thing.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by derekp7 on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:04PM (#14844795)
You got me curious, so I looked... page 1082 and 1083 of the Sears catalog, from 1912 https://archive.org/details/catalogno12400sear shows that a standard hammer was $0.66, and a hand saw was around $1.50 (there are several models from $1.05 to $1.95). So $0.66 (from 1912) is $15.82 in 2016, and $1.95 is $35.96.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by hatsunearu on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:11PM (#14844539)
Not sure if this is right but maybe because wages were lower back then even with inflation?
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by didgeoridoo on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:09PM (#14844824)
Sounds like a possible factor. Inflation-adjusted median household income in 1900 was around $12k. Now it's around $55k.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by taneq on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:01AM (#14845987)
For things like your solid metal tools, it's because the demand for metals is higher now than it was then, compared to supply. Also, solid metal may not actually be better than plastic or other options. It's heavy, and it rusts.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by fnl on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:17PM (#14844279)
Even more radically, you might as well just give everybody a universal basic income instead of heading back for a pre-industrialized way of life (though the Amish people seem to like it?!).
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by jimmywanger on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:27PM (#14844330)
If you give people a universal basic income, you need to both increase taxes a lot and completely restrict immigration - a basic income in the US is incredibly luxurious for people who live in sub-saharan Africa. Or else the universal basic income is going to be too low in first world countries to make a difference.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by fnl on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:57AM (#14847024)
I am fully aware that UBI is an utopia that would require at the very least a Zeitgeist well evolved beyond our species' current, most common world views. But a similar "time-inverse" utopia is trying to stop technological progress with laws.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by egypturnash on Monday July 24, 2017 @11:56PM (#14845016)
Or you just start taxing corporations and rich people again. Some stupidly huge percentage of dollars are just sitting in their coffers doing nothing.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by jimmywanger on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:24AM (#14845115)
Corporations and rich people have ways (completely legal) to get around taxes. If the tax burden becomes too onerous, they'll just move residences and/or stop doing business in your country.

You can see this in one of the founders of Facebook - he renounced his US citizenship, because of the onerous tax burdens. (https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/11/a-facebook-founder...)

It's foolish to just say "we should tax rich people and rich corporations more." You're incentivizing them to not play the game, and wealthy people generally have more abilities to evade taxes than people in the lower upper class or middle class, which is who the burden will inevitably fall upon.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by egypturnash on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:22PM (#14851971)
We just have to start guillotining them again, I guess. You need a good revolution once every generation or three to keep capital scared.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by jimmywanger on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @12:32AM (#14853657)
Did you not see my previous comment about capital flight?

This is not the middle ages anymore, where peoples' riches are tied up in real estate and machinery. Immovable capital.

Capital is fluid these days. If you start guillotining people for absolutely nothing except being rich (which is what you're insinuating) they'll just leave and take all the capital and productive capacity with them. See Venezuela.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by tanilama on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:54PM (#14844466)
UBI seems unlikely now, maybe very low level like 500 dollars per month, but definitely not going to support a comfortable living, that is only fantasy.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by prawn on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:26AM (#14845121)
Perhaps if the costs to maintain a comfortable living are lowered? It might be that people end up choosing between city living and the 40 hours a week of work required to support that, and living in a regional area where you can get by working 10 hours/week.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by manigandham on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:43AM (#14845172)
> not going to support a comfortable living

It's not supposed to.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by majewsky on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:05AM (#14846011)
Depends on whom you ask, and on the definition of "comfortable".
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by taneq on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:06PM (#14844207)
Because it's busywork, and it's wasting all those peoples' time. It's strictly inferior to letting a few workers use machinery to do the job, while paying the rest of the workers to sit around idle, because when using machinery you can rapidly increase output if required and the idle workers have the option to find something more useful to do.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by KekDemaga on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:22PM (#14844303)
Where do I sign up to be one of the idle workers?
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by taneq on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:39PM (#14844390)
Give it 10-20 years and you won't need to sign up, you'll just receive your UBI into your bank account every week. Well, that or the country you live in will have to let 30-40% of its people starve because there's nothing they can do better than a machine.

Remember, those idle workers aren't being paid a nice pay packet. They'll be on subsistence wages only. You'll still want to work a job if you want nice things.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by KekDemaga on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:46PM (#14844431)
If I'm one of those skilled workers who can do something better than a machine it seems the rational course of action is to move to one of the places where they let people starve and keep more of the fruits of my labor.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by cjalmeida on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:31AM (#14845319)
Until those people decide they should forcefully separate your head from your neck. See France (1787), Haiti (1791), USA (1861), Turkey(1908), Russia (1917), China (1949)...

Those are only the most notable major civil wars, but it's amazing how revolts are common across the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebell...

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by tspike on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:33AM (#14845329)
Strictly inferior by one metric. There are other factors to optimize for, e.g. rate of environmental destruction, median life satisfaction, social cohesiveness, breadth of knowledge vs specialization.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by taneq on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:02AM (#14845998)
So you're on the teaspoon side of the debate? (Or at least, you're saying that it's nuanced and that some nuances do favour the teaspoon side.)
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by tspike on Saturday July 29, 2017 @01:18AM (#14879628)
Yes, the latter- you can take either side ad absurdum, though the teaspoon side is easier to mischaracterize. Single-variable optimization is easy; multivariate is much harder especially when wetware is involved.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by zghst on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:09PM (#14844228)
Seriously limits technological progress. Pretty much insures Indian tech companies cannot develop this IP in their homelands. Who knows what kind of tech driverless car might beget, like space navigation, etc? What kind of economy of scale it would enable? The quality and lifestyle and savings from freeing people of having to be fully present during this dull activity. People could use that time in the car to do so many things.

Cars could be available always, not just when people are up. This could lead to a stronger economy, the car delivers the customer to the product, instead of he customer having to think about it. Less friction in decision making, more freedom.

For people of developed nations that get used to that lifestyle, it would be a world of night and day when they arrive in a place that is actively against the conveniences of life afforded by technology. Life, for these people banned from this awesome experience, would appear more bleak and torturous. Even viewed by some as primitive.

Locally developed military technology suffers, with the lack of local talent they would have to accept inferior technology.

There are probably endless implications for banning things. They could have been smart and just taxed this tech very high in place of taking jobs.

It is a silent catastrophe as a governing decision.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by kthejoker2 on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:52PM (#14844738)
As a consultant I recently traveled to a client office; the Wifi was spotty and failed so often I literally had a mild anxiety attack and had to head back to the home office just to clear my mind.

I can only imagine what privileges the next generation are going to upgrade to necessities.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by sintaxi on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:12PM (#14844250)
Its like thinking breaking windows adds to the economy because someone gets paid to fix it. In the end the window gets restored to its original condition and money is simply transferred from one person to another but no value has been created. Stifling innovation in a way is like handing everyone a hammer and telling them to break things to stimulate the economy.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by poke111 on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:48PM (#14844129)
Because you create wealth by producing goods and services. Jobs are a cost, not the end goal. Sacrificing production for jobs gets it exactly backwards and makes us, in the aggregate, poorer, even though it makes a few people richer.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by malchow on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:56PM (#14844476)
Nicely put.

I'd add that your response makes a tidy argument against the abusive public employee unions that hold public fisc hostage in the U.S. Right now, U.S. teachers' unions have crafted a public education industry that is a lot like what this technocrat in India might have conceived .

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by zghst on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:13PM (#14844254)
And it ensures that the economy is based on time and low pay rather than valuable skills or invention. It removes the incentives to innovate in areas of life that are time consuming but have lots of workers.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by hackinthebochs on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:04PM (#14844511)
But jobs are how those goods and services are distributed. A country like India is not in a state to transition to basic income yet.
Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by ChrisLomont on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:36PM (#14844066)
Historically, society ends up poorer when doing things sub-optimally, and if society does it long enough, it also becomes obsolete and non-competitive, ensuring that society stays behind for longer than simply allowing the tech changes to evolve as they can.

So if your goal is temporary employment gains for long term poverty, this is a good way to start.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by DINKDINK on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:37PM (#14844067)
Ce qu'on voit et ce qu'on ne voit pas [1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by deepnotderp on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:12PM (#14844248)
What's the purpose?

Companies are obviously not going to do that if they have autonomy since it's inefficient production. Instead, the government will have to do so, and at that point they only do so to pump money into the economy. Why not instead spend that on NASA like space programs instead?

I've long advocated for a "techno-Keynesian" approach to economics.

Re:India will ban driverless cars in order to protect jobs by jimmywanger on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:22PM (#14844305)
If you do this, you'd also logically have to ban imports or tax them at an extremely high rate.

By banning any sort of technology, you're indirectly increasing the costs of domestically placed goods, by increasing the costs of production.