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Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by nugget on Sunday July 23, 2017 @10:57AM (#14832528)
> It's just really hard to get serious VCs to pay attention to Pittsburgh.

I'm an angel investor in a few dozen tech startups, about half in the Bay Area and half spread elsewhere around the country. The biggest problem with those outside of the Bay Area is that for lack of a better term "they don't think big enough". A lot of the promising ones turn into lifestyle-type businesses (e.g. a focus on services revenue instead of software revenue) when, in my opinion, they could have achieved much greater exits. Whether justified or not, I know many other investors with a similar bias based on similar experiences.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by Hydraulix989 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:27AM (#14832668)
Which is more of an issue with those VCs than the founders; there are a number of self-driving car startups here and they have a unique advantage: they aren't biased by the immaculate freeways and roads in California -- Pittsburgh has a much wider variety of challenging driving situations, weather, and conditions than California so it is a great test bed for developing autonomous vehicles (indeed, CMU won 1st place in the DARPA Grand Urban challenge, readily beating the likes of Stanford and Berkeley).

Some California VCs are mistakenly under the impression that anywhere outside the Bay Area must be Siberia. It's going to eventually bite them in terms of missed future opportunities and ROI on their funds.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by thearn4 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:37AM (#14832727)
It's an interesting point that robust autonomous systems may be more likely to emerge in organizations from places that have distinct seasons (including a perennial 'orange construction barrel' season).
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by whopa on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:39AM (#14832743)
> they aren't biased by the immaculate freeways and roads in California -- Pittsburgh has a much wider variety of challenging driving situations, weather, and conditions than California so it is a great test bed for developing autonomous vehicles

Careful, don't compare Pittsburgh to an entire state. Pennsylvania doesn't have any real mountains, whereas California does. Google tests their self driving vehicles in the Lake Tahoe area, which in the winter can be much more challenging than anywhere in within 500 miles of Pittsburgh.

Navigating serious grade changes, both uphill and downhill, presents more of a challenge for trucks too, even for humans right now. The only places to really test that in the US are pretty much west of Denver.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by sliken on Sunday July 23, 2017 @06:49PM (#14834807)
This sounds like someone who has never driven in Tahoe and Pittsburgh. I've done quite a bit in both.

I can tell you that 80 and 50 that head over the sierras are often closed for what would be consider relatively minor snow in Pittsburgh. Sometimes it's not even the road conditions, just lack of visibility (fog or snow). Significant ice is also fairly rare just because of level of maintenance, I suspect somewhat fueled by poor California drivers and ski resorts that push for excessive road maintenance.

On the other hand Pittsburgh gets plenty of snow, plenty of storms, and I can assure you they don't close the highways unless it's a storm of the century so bad that you'll not even be able to find cars let alone drive them. Additionally the Pittsburgh area roads have significant elevation changes, often narrow, and poorly maintained. Take for instance the top 10 steeps roads in the USA. Pittsburgh has #2 and it snows there. SF has #9 and #10, but it rarely snows there. Another puzzling factor is Pittsburgh uses a ton of salt, yet has temperature variations that often lead to snow melting from salt, then refreezing in sheets of ice or "black" ice. I've definitely skidded WAY further in the Pittsburgh on ice than I have have around Tahoe. For a year or so I was crossing 3 7200 foot passes each weekend around Tahoe and in the last 20 years I'm often up around there for various reasons.

Even the average Pittsburgh driver seems to deal with snow MUCH better than the ones I find up around Tahoe area when it snows. Even though the Pittsburgh driver is likely in a 10 year old front wheel drive econobox instead of a newish AWD SUV.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by Hydraulix989 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:43AM (#14832769)
As an SF transplant, my only thoughts after seeing California drivers struggling with the artificial snow and hills at Tahoe were "these people have never been to Pittsburgh."

Also, eastern Pennsylvania has the Appalachian mountains, and last time I checked, they were "real."

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by nostrademons on Sunday July 23, 2017 @02:54PM (#14833780)
Also a Bay Area transplant here, initially from Boston.

I'd agree that Californian snow-driving skills are a joke, and that Tahoe isn't actually that difficult compared to New England winters.

However, there really are terrain types that CA has (and Google tests its self-driving cars on) that just don't exist back east. There's nothing like CA 1 on the east coast, with windy 15mph switchbacks and a sheer several hundred foot drop into the ocean if you miss a curve. Nor do they regularly have to deal with the road being closed because of rockslides, or Tesla drivers who pass you illegally.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by whopa on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:53AM (#14832833)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Davis_(Pennsylvania) - 3,213 ft - highest point in PA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tejon_Pass - 4,160 ft

Tejon Pass is on I-5 in northern LA County, and it is a huge trucking route. The grade is very steep between the Central Valley and the top of the pass, and is fairly challenging for trucks. There is no equivalent to those conditions in PA.

Also, if your impression of Tahoe is only the heavily touristed parts, your view is incomplete. The mountain roads in the Sierras have no equivalent east of the Mississippi.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by ntsplnkv2 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @12:15PM (#14832961)
looks like someone has never been to Pennsylvania.

Tejon Pass' major difficulty is the grade, and that's about it. PA may not have a highway that matches that grade, but many come close, and there are far more tight curves, typically far worse road conditions, and bad weather season is far more common than in N LA.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by whopa on Sunday July 23, 2017 @12:27PM (#14833028)
My point about Tejon Pass is that it's a steep grade mountain pass with heavy traffic including lots of trucks. There's no equivalent in PA.

Highway trucking will be the first significant deployment of autonomous vehicles. One of the big challenges is Mountain West interstates.

I do agree that the NE US is a proper testbed for bad weather city driving, since no West Coast cities have really that bad winter weather, I'm just objecting to the claim that somehow Pittsburgh captures all the challenging road conditions that autonomous vehicles will encounter.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by thesmallestcat on Sunday July 23, 2017 @06:25PM (#14834737)
Have you ever driven on 70 or 80 through PA? Because "steep grade mountain pass with heavy traffic, including lots of trucks" is an apt description of either route.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by nostrademons on Sunday July 23, 2017 @02:58PM (#14833797)
I'm also thinking of the Virgin River Gorge on I-15 in Southern Utah, which isn't just steep and winding, but also extremely narrow and windy, and yet supports interstate speeds. I don't know of anything similar in the Eastern U.S; upstate NY and Appalachia have plenty of gorges, but most are local roads and aren't the main interstate thoroughfare between them.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by sliken on Sunday July 23, 2017 @06:57PM (#14834828)
Definitely easy for a non-Pittsburgh to equate difficulty with elevation. Which ignores elevation changes, weather, sharp turns, tunnels, and bridges. Also a strange fondness for salt which generally makes things worse. Find a Pittsburgher who thinks driving in Tahoe is hard, even off the beaten path.

Personally I try my best to get as far off the beaten path as I can. Tahoe and surrounding areas is a cake walk compared to Pittsburgh.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by Avshalom on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:32AM (#14832695)
>> lifestyle-type businesses

e.g. profitable.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by closeparen on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:50PM (#14833439)
Which is great for the people living off that income, and not great for investors unless it's also valuable. VCs would need to take fewer, smaller risks if they're expecting smaller rewards per success story.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by Avshalom on Sunday July 23, 2017 @02:15PM (#14833565)
I feel like it's a pretty recent development that investors don't expect their investments to turn a profit.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by closeparen on Sunday July 23, 2017 @02:33PM (#14833671)
The investment needs to turn a profit for the investor by appreciating in value, which is different from turning a profit in general.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by pjlegato on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:03AM (#14845228)
VCs by definition are looking for the Next Big Thing, not to finance someone's lifestyle business. The returns are too low to justify the huge risk. There are many other lower risk ways to get lifestyle-business sized returns for an investor.

VC limited partners invest because it has low correlation to other investments and the potential for 100% returns. If they're just getting a potential 7% (or whatever), they can buy stocks or real estate etc. at much lower risk.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by Avshalom on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:55AM (#14832839)
Also parallelism aside pretty sure we both mean i.e. not e.g.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by ssharp on Sunday July 23, 2017 @12:47PM (#14833140)
It seems like the midwest much prefers B2B software and health industry-focused startups. I'm assuming because they become profitable much faster and don't need the explosive growth and capital needs of moonshot SV companies. Fewer unicorn exits drops the EV of an investment, so you can't take as many risky bets.

I'd guess the medical startups are largely because of Cleveland Clinic and UPMC.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by pesenti on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:04AM (#14832560)
It's a good point, I have noticed that as well. But it's both a cause and consequence of the lack of easy access to capital. Early stage big ideas that require a lot of initial capital just won't get funded in a place like Pittsburgh. Once they pick up, then they have a chance (see Duolingo for example). But by that time most have had to make ends meet...
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by joehosteny on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:54AM (#14837997)
I understand your position, but I think these companies do exist here. I know, because I've been at a few of them (Avere Systems and Bossa Nova Robotics, for example). I think our biggest challenge is getting sufficient capital in the region. The airport situation has been a serious impediment - great airport, few direct flights to the west coast - but that is changing.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by draw_down on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:02AM (#14832552)
On balance, maybe not such a bad thing.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by tarr11 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @11:17AM (#14832617)
Interesting, can you expand on services business being lifestyle vs product being venture?

I had never heard of that distinction before and usually just thought of lifestyle businesses as slower growing vs faster.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by nugget on Sunday July 23, 2017 @12:27PM (#14833027)
Sure, here's an example - a small startup which occupies an attractive niche, definite market need, product-market fit, and decent traction. The founder developed a software platform in response to market need, but the market also told her that there were opportunities to sell extensive services. Now that the software platform is done and there is a small services team in place, the founder can choose to sell either:

a) the software platform, which might make $20k/year, but you can sell thousands of them without much incremental overhead needed; once integrated, it's also extremely sticky; low customer churn and high customer satisfaction

b) a services package, which might make $50k/year, but for every 3-4 you sell, you need to hire a new employee @ $75k/year fully-loaded overhead cost

Before you say "sell both!" - unfortunately the nature of things is such that, more or less, the founder needs to prioritize selling one or the other. Consciously or not, she is prioritizing the services revenue, and as a result about 90% of new sales are services contracts. I (and the other investors) would prefer that she prioritize software. Even if it makes them unprofitable, it would make for a much better risk-adjusted bet. And this isn't like "it's a much better bet for the investors, because they can diversify risk out in a portfolio, but the poor founder would probably be left with nothing". She understands both sides and says she wants to build up the software revenue, but the culture around her (south-eastern city) is so strongly opposed to it, that the execution has been impossible. This is a classic case of where a smaller PE firm will come in and buy it out for a few million, purposefully cut the services revenue, go hog wild selling software, and flip it a few years later for 10-20x what they paid.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by bane on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:22PM (#14833295)
> This is a classic case of where a smaller PE firm will come in and buy it out for a few million, purposefully cut the services revenue, go hog wild selling software, and flip it a few years later for 10-20x what they paid.

Or the classic case where PE buys it, cuts services and all the staff who know anything about the product, go hog wild trying to sell software and realize that that the market isn't there and never was and the services path actually was the only the way to make inroads. The investment craters and everybody loses money.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by nugget on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:31PM (#14833346)
Certainly, there is always risk of poor strategy and/or poor execution, with an outcome exactly as you describe. Having seen both scenarios play out however (as both an investor and an operator), in this case I think it would be the right move.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by rwallace on Sunday July 23, 2017 @08:55PM (#14835229)
Why would that last be a good idea? You're throwing away a good business with 70% gross margins - for what? Okay, to concentrate on something that might be a good business with 99% gross margins, but is the difference between 70% and 99% all that important compared to other factors, like the difference between is and might be? Not a rhetorical question; maybe there is some logic to it that I'm missing.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by afuchs on Sunday July 23, 2017 @07:49PM (#14834987)
There are plenty of successful service oriented companies.

For example, Uber and Lyft, both sell a service that requires a proportional amount of new contractors and employees, to scale.

Another would be Palantir, which sells services based off of a core software product.

How do you classify companies that are ambitious, but perform work that doesn't scale?

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by reneherse on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:14PM (#14833263)
Thank you; it's very interesting to hear the details on this. One question:

>she wants to build up the software revenue, but the culture around her (south-eastern city) is so strongly opposed to it, that the execution has been impossible

Do you mean the existing company culture, e.g. employees only having service-oriented skills, or the southeastern city culture, somehow being inhospitable for developing software?

I'm curious because I currently live in a southeastern city (Nashville), am about to move to another (Atlanta), and am in the beginning stages of building a B2B SAAS startup.

Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by nugget on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:23PM (#14833299)
All of the above, including her own subliminal bias which is reinforced by being around a lot of peers who run services businesses.
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by reneherse on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:52PM (#14833448)
Thanks!
Re:Pittsburgh Gets a Tech Makeover by tarr11 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @01:38PM (#14833373)