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Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:23AM (#14804071)
All good advice, but I'm going to propose something that may be a bit contrary to current wisdom: if you really want a decent lifestyle/work-life balance don't start a business!

So what's the alternative?

Go contracting. Reduce your expenses to the bone, and limit the contracts you do. I now only take 3 month contracts and I do one a year. I make about £24K from that - I know many developers making double my rate. That £24K is more than double my expenses though. If there's a 6 month contract I really like the look of I will do it (especially if it's remote working) - but then I'll take at least a year off.

The great thing about a contract is you go in, do your thing, get out. Job done. No stress. No worry. No customers giving you grief and wanting their money back. No infrastructure going down with admin alerts at 3.00am. No hassle. I don't even have my own limited company. I use an umbrella company and while not as tax efficient I have no dealing with accountants, HMRC, tax returns and all that nonsense.

I think there are many good reasons to start a 'lifestyle' business. I'm just not convinced it's the way to go if work-life balance is what you are looking for.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by dejv on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:20AM (#14804908)
Second that.

My way was to find maintenance contract where I do programming few hours a week that pays my bills and mortgage + occasionally taking some contract work (about once a year, month - three months long).

Contracts could be very stressful (as I am usually picking on some VC type of startup as they use to pay more), but I know it is going to be over soon so it is easy to just go through it.

I am doing that for more then a decade and it works, the only thing is to figure out what you are going to do with your off time: I used to start startups, side projects, travel the world, but for past few years I am just farming and spending time with my kid.

More people should really think about this alternative.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by adlq on Tuesday August 01, 2017 @04:34AM (#14898786)
Where/how do you find those types of contracts?
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:29AM (#14804985)
For me the time off in between contracts was the best bit! :)

Yes, contracts can be stressful, but like you say you know the exact day when the pain will end. In most jobs the pain is never ending!

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by bubbleRefuge on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:28AM (#14804109)
Well here in the states we gotta have health insurance at like 600 bucks a month if you are single and over 40.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:42AM (#14804190)
Developer salaries in the US are much higher than the UK, more than enough to offset that cost.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by edpichler on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:31AM (#14804127)
Good advice! But, just to remember us, happiness formula is not the same for everyone.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:25AM (#14804956)
Quite right! This is not for everyone!
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by matthewking on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:06AM (#14804337)
What do you do with the other 9 months of the year? side projects? travel? Id be interested to hear how your lifestyle is with all the free time.

I've considered this approach myself too but more 6 months on, 6 months off. Scala in particular seems to pay extremely well (£600-£650 /day) so easy to make the money to live a comfortable lifestyle in 3 or 6 months per year. I think other dev contracts are usually around £450 in London which is still more than enough.

Id love a permanent 2-3 day a week job too for work/life balance but those seem non existent for devs unfortunately.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:21AM (#14804434)
Hi Matthew, my rate is £400 a day, I'm a tech writer. Most contract developers I know are on a lot more than that. Double mostly. They do Java/Scala/Perl. That is probably just the niche I have been in though. My very first contract wasn't particularly high £260 a day, but you get known and you can charge more once you've got people who will vouch for you.

With regards the 9 months. I write code (Python), read (a lot), watch movies, relax, listen to music. The point for me is I have to do this. Many years ago (I'm 55 now) I got very, very depressed and considered suicide. I was totally and utterly burnt out due to never ending work.

I spend quite a lot of time in Philippines and Thailand - mostly for the diving. My partner and I are keen divers (she's a nurse - but only does contract work now too). I also like photography, hiking, camping, biking and so on. I am studying for mountain leader exams.

I read Hacker News too but rarely comment. Just today and yesterday. Probably today will be the last day!

p.s. I used to work with a guy who negotiated a four day week. He is still doing that to date as far as I know. You might be able to negotiate fewer days but it's not easy.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by strongai on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @02:57PM (#14806871)
Hey zapperdapper

I'm so glad you posted. I'm a 57-year-old tech writer (UK-based) who followed a similar pattern to you for 10 years.

Then I got sick of static daily rates and now work as a permie (2 days in Birmingham, 3 days from home) for a US based tech company.

My first contract rate in 2004 was £350 a day, and now I'd probably struggle to make that again. Maybe £400, but above that, I'd need some special USPs. And from where I live, it's £50 a day to get to London, not to mention the extra 4 hour journey times!

Great to know you've found a perfect formula!

PS: Topping was also on my agenda until I reached 50.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by matthewking on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:47AM (#14804639)
I've worked a 6 month contract before, 3 months would have been ideal I think as after that it was starting to drag on a bit but I don't see many contracts that short. Unfortunately the company didn't really utilise my time very well until I was almost at the end of the contract. Id rather hit the ground running but I guess each contract varies.

It's hard to know what we'd all do with so much free time and I think some people would be a bit lost, but it certainly sounds like you make the most of it and live a nice lifestyle. Particularly all the outdoor activities is something id like to spend more time on myself.

Thanks for sharing!

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:53AM (#14804682)
Yeah, it's not for everyone. It wasn't an overnight transition for me - I just reduced expenses and reduced time working accordingly.

Yes, I must admit I got absolutely sick to death of sitting in a stuffy office every day staring at a screen. No wonder I nearly topped myself!

All the best!

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by eswat on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:49AM (#14805168)
Wow, great to hear this from you.

I’ve been doing remote consulting for the past three years - product design & development - but over the last several months I decided to bump up my work rate from the usual 2-3 days per week I had. Realizing now that I prefered the more leisurely schedule I had before.

I’ve been to the Philippines a few times and strongly considering working from there next year to avoid Canadian Winter for at least a few months of my life. Just good to hear more references about expat life there. :)

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by jonmb on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:01AM (#14804766)
I like this - the idea has a Mr. Money Mustache vibe to it. His blog is great, if you haven't seen it already.

My question for you is how do you manage healthcare costs?

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:19AM (#14804904)
haha - I'm more like Mr. Shoestring Mustache. MMM has several hundred thousand a year coming in from his blog alone. He also had I think a million bucks in the bank before he retired. He also has a couple of rental properties I believe. I don't have anything like that.

I live in UK so healthcare is free here. Many years ago I had some mental health problems and the NHS here literally saved my life. I am so grateful for that. I also have a private medical plan that covers myself and my partner but it only costs about £1k a year, and I only have that because it can potentially reduce waiting times. I am considering just doing without it though.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by mgkimsal on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:48AM (#14805157)
> I also have a private medical plan that covers myself and my partner but it only costs about £1k a year

I know you pay for it in other taxes and what not, but... for comparison, we're paying more than half that per month, and it doesn't cover any expenses until we spend $10k in a year. We are in a really crazy situation here.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by bigtunacan on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @01:01PM (#14805781)
In terms of the healtcare; is it free only for native citizens? What if someone were to move there from another country such as the United States?
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by tim333 on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @07:12PM (#14808805)
Free for EU citizens. For people from the US there is a small charge if you move here https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-mu...

It doesn't cover tourists anymore in theory. They'd treat and then bill you but you could probably go home and not pay.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by charlieflowers on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:42PM (#14809694)
What about preexisting conditions? Would anything prevent someone who was just diagnosed with cancer (but not bed ridden) from migrating to the UK, paying this $300/year, and receiving full coverage?
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by matthewking on Thursday July 20, 2017 @08:47AM (#14811978)
They call this "health tourism" and its a fairly regular subject that comes up whenever NHS budgets are discussed, in reality though I believe latest figures put it at about £300m /year (0.3% of the NHS budget).

I don't know how easy it is to do what you describe but some people evidently do it. I imagine if you're an EU citizen you can come right in but if you're non EU you might have some more difficulty.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by tim333 on Thursday July 20, 2017 @05:39AM (#14811104)
Think it's ok - not sure http://talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=50455.0

You might have problems getting residence

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by Dayshine on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:13AM (#14804862)
The UK has public healthcare, so no direct costs to users.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by jvvw on Thursday July 20, 2017 @10:54AM (#14812988)
I've got a 2.5 day a week job as a developer in the south east of the UK, but got it by originally working there full-time and then later applying for flexible working (I have kids so had a legal right to request flexible working, although employers are allowed to turn down such requests on certain grounds). I do suspect that word of mouth would be the only way to get such a job from scratch.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by muloka on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:49AM (#14804237)
This is great until you have dependents and your expenses grow. It requires everyone to be on board with your vision which is a lot more challenging to maintain over time.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:01AM (#14804304)
You are absolutely right. It's much harder to do with young dependents. I'm 55 now and my son is 27 and daughter 24!

However, I still think the same rules apply. Ram down expenses as much as possible. I did this when my kids were much younger. I couldn't get away with working 3 months a year, but I often did a six and maybe a 3 and had 3 months off. Back then I'd spend the free time with my kids. These days because they do their own thing I head off to Phils or Thailand and go diving.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by htormey on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @08:53PM (#14809271)
Obligatory link to mr money mustache. He has a great blog on keeping expenses low and living a frugal post tech lifestyle. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by 6stringmerc on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:38AM (#14804550)
You've perfectly summed up my goal of making the transition back into Software Development. I'd like to be a well compensated, project based employee when possible. Then, I can have the skills and interest to work on my personal projects and if they provide gratification or income, then I will be hitting the desired work-life-creativity balance that is a bit tricky to land and maintain (in my experience). Thanks for your perspective!
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by Dayshine on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:28AM (#14804106)
How did you get started with contracting? And do you find yourself having to commute a lot?

I haven't found a huge number of jobs near each other in the UK outside of London.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:41AM (#14804187)
Good question. The company I was working for at the time went bust - I'd been with them about 7 years. I just searched online for contracts (I'm actually a tech writer, not a developer, but have coding skills - there are a lot more contracts out there for coders compared to writers). My very first contract was with a wonderful web company in London.

Anyway, as to the commuting. Yes - you are right - it's a total pain in the bum. Sometimes if the gig is a long way away I will stay up in cheap B&B. It depends. But - you can put up almost anything for three months right? That's the beauty of it. You know the pain will end - you know the exact day.

The commuting is soon forgotten when you are heading out to a wreck dive by boat in the Philippines. :)

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by briandear on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:27AM (#14804968)
So you essentially work for the rest of your life? Building a business should not be confused with creating a job for yourself.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @12:17PM (#14805405)
> So you essentially work for the rest of your life?

Not quite. I still pay National Insurance contributions, and in fact am already entitled to a full UK state pension (at age 66). I also pay into a private pension plan and have done so for years. I also built up my tax free savings in cash and stocks and shares (low cost index tracker). I can access the private pension and private savings whenever I want.

So the plan is I will continue to do this as long as it makes sense to do so.

My partner and I are actually considering complete early retirement (I'm 55 now) to Philippines next year - but that's another story.

Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by Dayshine on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @11:48AM (#14805162)
I'm not sure a business is a better "pension" than a pension. No pension + business is a risky retirement.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by danieltillett on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @09:47AM (#14804215)
You can make a lot more than £24K a year running a lifestyle business. Running a lifestyle business does not mean you have to sacrifice a work-life balance. Think hard to avoid working hard.
Re:Things I’ve Learned from Reading IndieHackers by zapperdapper on Wednesday July 19, 2017 @10:11AM (#14804374)
Of course you can potentially make more than that - if that business is successful. There are no guarantees. It's a lot harder and takes a lot longer than most people think to create a £24K a year business. Just drumming up enough customers is a pain. Remember I get £24k in 3 months and the work is not especially hard.

Sure, if you can hit on a business idea that works, and is stress free, and doesn't take much time and effort to set up, then good luck to you!

I want to emphasize something though - for me the money is not the important thing, as long as I have enough. For me the work-life balance is the priority. Had too much stress in the past to want to go back to that lifestyle again!