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Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by unclebucknasty on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:39PM (#14767272)
In some ways, yes, it actually is bad. Depends on your perspective.

As a very simple example, imagine that you were able to fully automate, such that you required zero workers. Imagine further that all other businesses did the same.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by harryh on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:43PM (#14767290)
If literally all imaginable human work was 100% automated then the cost of goods and services compared to today would be tiny. The poorest member of that society would live like a king from our present day world.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by codexon on Friday July 14, 2017 @01:34AM (#14767746)
The problem is, the plebians would not be able to get a job to pay for the goods/services no matter how cheap they may become.

If you had robots making everything you could possibly want, why would you bother selling any of it to people who don't have any land, natural resources, or rare skills? They wouldn't have anything you want.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by adrianN on Friday July 14, 2017 @03:28AM (#14768174)
Why bother selling it at all? You could just give away the things for free. The marginal cost of an item is just the energy needed to produce it. With robots building solar panels or something like that, those costs are negligible.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by codexon on Friday July 14, 2017 @03:33AM (#14768188)
Because it still takes effort to give things away for free and as a robot owner, natural resources, land, rare skills can't be automated away.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by Chris2048 on Friday July 14, 2017 @11:43AM (#14770658)
Effort is a human skill, which the premise states is already automated. As are rare skills.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by codexon on Friday July 14, 2017 @05:36PM (#14773395)
If you can even automate giving things away without worrying about people hacking/stealing/vandalizing your robots, then wouldn't it also be likely for you to spend all your resources on combat robots to take resources/land from other robot owners instead of wasting them on people that aren't giving you anything you want?
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by Chris2048 on Friday July 14, 2017 @08:41PM (#14774379)
Why would the elite worry about that, life is good in a monopoly, no need to upset the balance.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by codexon on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:02AM (#14775400)
Because resources don't last forever? Nor are they distributed among the land equally (for example oil,rare earth elements, uranium).
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by Chris2048 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:36PM (#14778493)
Those are all current resources. The general currency is "energy" and "materials", and even materials are based on the energy in creating them (I don't think REEs are that rare, but they are hard to process).
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by codexon on Saturday July 15, 2017 @06:27PM (#14779380)
There is no research to even suggest that we are going to be able to synthesize one type of matter to another arbitrary type without expending an absurd amount of energy, making it useless to do.

The idea that you could do something like that is even more outlandish than having robots that could automate everything a human could.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by Chris2048 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @07:20PM (#14779658)
> one type of matter to another arbitrary type

But I didn't say this.

Certain materials can be substituted for another, but for high energy costs in making them.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by s73ver on Friday July 14, 2017 @04:53PM (#14773080)
Why would you give it away for free? Also, you're forgetting the cost of raw materials.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by unclebucknasty on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:52PM (#14767334)
>If literally all imaginable human work was 100% automated then the cost of goods and services compared to today would be tiny

Well, that assumption is pretty general and doesn't account for natural resources/raw materials, energy inputs required for production, or other factors. It would also vary per sector, such that the statement is far from universally true.

>The poorest member of that society would live like a king from our present day world

But, regardless, there would be some cost for goods. How do you propose the now 100% unemployed population pay for anything, let alone "live like kings"?

The answer is that you would need to devise a method of wealth distribution that is orthogonal to capitalism. Say, for instance, a tax that subsidizes everyone else. That, of course, would not be capitalism.

The point is that wage labor is fundamental to capitalism. Somewhere between our present state and 100% automation, a capitalist system requires so much intervention that it breaks down.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by chii on Friday July 14, 2017 @04:57AM (#14768499)
I think taxing property ownership is the only natural conclusion i can draw from such an ultimate end-state. If you own any property, you pay a tax, and that tax is fed to those who do not own property, in such a way that they survive.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by chongli on Friday July 14, 2017 @02:29AM (#14767956)
The cost would be low, but since nobody would have a job the prices would be astronomical. Multiply people's purchasing power by a million, great, but a million times zero is still zero.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by morugin on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:15AM (#14769937)
>The poorest member of that society would live like a king from our present day world.

You forget things such as: meaningful work, respect from society, crime, cultural differences between the poor and the rich, interclass upward mobility (see any sociology textbook), intellectual stimulation.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by tonyedgecombe on Friday July 14, 2017 @02:39AM (#14767998)
No, capitalism would eat itself, you can't run an economy without consumers.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by ddnb on Friday July 14, 2017 @03:26AM (#14768168)
One could say it would hang itself by its own rope.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by nkrisc on Friday July 14, 2017 @09:56AM (#14769788)
I think at that point we could say we "finished" capitalism and we'd have to move on to another system to keep society functioning.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by lazaroclapp on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:50PM (#14767324)
Sounds like a post-scarcity utopia to me, depending on how large the set of "all businesses" is and what we do with the surplus in production :)
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by unclebucknasty on Friday July 14, 2017 @12:10AM (#14767393)
Ha! Sign me up.

Actually, I like the idea of work. But, at some point, we will have to "artificially" employ people or, of course, implement a UBI. But, even with the latter, we'll have to re-imagine our relationship to work and its role as a source of self-worth.

There's this idea that without work, we'd all just instantly self-actualize and write poetry or paint masterpieces. Not sure why we imagine this vs. the more likely reality that we'd instead sit around sharing cat memes, making heinous YouTube comments, and generally getting dumber.

I'm not sure if society is really ready for a post-work world.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by tonyedgecombe on Friday July 14, 2017 @02:42AM (#14768008)
I'd rather people sat around watching cat videos than we forced them to dig holes and fill them in again.
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by unclebucknasty on Friday July 14, 2017 @04:12AM (#14768338)
Well, that "artificial" employment I mentioned would presumably be at least somewhat fulfilling--i.e. pretty much what you see today. By artificial, I didn't mean running in hamster wheels or digging holes. I meant more that we employ people for jobs that we could technically automate.

Of course, that's not ideal either. My main point was that a UBI (or not having to work) wouldn't be the instant panacea that some suggest, leading to a sudden heightening of the human race as we are collectively released to pursue our higher purposes.

Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by Chris2048 on Friday July 14, 2017 @12:03PM (#14770852)
On the other hand, I'd sooner they dig the holes, than make more youtube videos..
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by tonyedgecombe on Saturday July 15, 2017 @07:43AM (#14776177)
Why? For penitence?
Re:Why Can’t Americans Get a Raise? by Chris2048 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:34PM (#14778484)
Less crap on the internet, the less shit youtube recommendation engine has to fling at me.