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Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by 59nadir on Monday July 10, 2017 @08:55AM (#14735443)
What a world we could have if companies realized they could sidestep this problem entirely if they hired remote workers.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by IshKebab on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:10AM (#14736051)
Or paid more. Whenever companies say "there's a skills shortage" or "we can't find enough good developers" or whatever, they are missing off the important "... for the price that we would like to pay" part.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by opportune on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:42AM (#14736338)
Exactly. Soti is paying on average $80k/year for their non-senior devs (source:glassdoor). That's $20k/year less than the median starting salary of graduates from my undergrad. Of course, they are in Canada, but still, it's no wonder they're having trouble hiring people. Just pay more for less positions...
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by kspaans on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:53AM (#14736449)
Yes they are in Canada where they don't need their employers-sponsored health insurance, get more vacation time, don't have huge student debt, and can't get laid off with no severance and no notice.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by opportune on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:59AM (#14736501)
Just as a rebuttal, I don't have student debt and get plenty of vacation time, and my employer has pretty amazing health insurance. Not everyone is lucky this way but I personally would never move to Canada for a tech job and don't know anybody who has done so, while I have definitely met many Canadians who have moved here.

The Canadian and US labor markets are pretty interconnected so in my opinion these companies are going to have to start raising salaries if they really want to get talent. I feel like I read something on HN every week bemoaning the Canadian tech industry, when most of the problems have a pretty simple solution: pay more. Of course, that's easy to say but not necessarily easy to do financially.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by kspaans on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:08AM (#14736572)
No argument here that the jobs are more lucrative, on paper, South of the border. Just trying to point out that there are lots of aspects to consider when you're looking at compensation. Being young, healthy, and single in the US can net you a lot, but I suspect that other bills would quickly eat up the difference if you aren't all 3 of those things.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by Afton on Monday July 10, 2017 @11:44AM (#14736950)
As a Canadian who moved south for work and is rapidly approaching or in middle age, this is my position on the healthcare here: If you have good insurance, it is AMAZING! I understand that others have it worse, but all major software dev employers that I've looked at had really really great HI. In Canada OTOH, the service is much worse for non-emergency things, but everyone gets to have it. From an ethical standpoint, of course I support some kind of 'everyone gets sensible healthcare'. But I pay less out of pocket here than I would in Canada for my family of 5. Financially, moving back to Canada would be a disaster.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by briandear on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:20PM (#14737307)
If the employer doesn’t pay health, then salaries should be much higher than the US. Salaries in the US are exclusives of health benefits. So an SV company paying $140k is paying that in addition to health benefits. A Canadian company is paying $60k AND they don’t have the additional expensive of health. Then on top of that low salary, the employee has to pay taxes which obstensiby funds their health care.

Perhaps it’s worker protection that makes salaries lower in Canada? If it’s harder to fire people, that cost gets spread across all salaries to reflect the risk of having an employee you can’t easily fire.

Canadaians make far less than Americans even after accounting for the “benefits.”

I once saw a company looking to hire a senior rails developer at $25 CAD per hour. Insanity. I think it was even for a Vancouver company.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by tensor on Monday July 10, 2017 @07:14PM (#14740428)
I don't believe for a second that the average amount a CS undergrad from any Canadian school is getting is 100k. The top students sure, they will get offers from big places in California for 90k USD but the top students are far from "average."

Even in the US when you consider the whole instead of just Silicon Valley that is not a reasonable number to expect.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by opportune on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @09:35AM (#14744016)
You're right, I don't go to a school in Canada. But 90k USD is actually very low these days for places like Google/Facebook/MS so your comment is still not quite so up-to-date. 100k really is the median starting salary of graduating undergrads (at my undergrad, at least).

If Canada doesn't want all their CS graduates chasing the huge amounts of money they can make in the US, they need to raise their salaries. Otherwise they won't only face a tech-worker shortage, they'll have to deal with a full-on brain drain, which is even worse (of course, Google is expanding in Canada so hopefully this won't happen).

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by samclearman on Monday July 10, 2017 @08:08PM (#14740661)
Top students getting offers in California are getting 150k USD minimum (including equity and bonus).
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by tensor on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:36AM (#14742037)
Maybe if you have a PhD, but not from undergrad. If you have any sort of data to back this up please present it, because public statistics don't reflect this, and logic doesn't support paying an undergrad anything close to that.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by aswanson on Monday July 10, 2017 @01:00PM (#14737688)
What are Canadian business tax rates vs US rates?
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by jellicle on Monday July 10, 2017 @01:11PM (#14737784)
0% for both, for any money spent on salaries.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by thephyber on Monday July 10, 2017 @06:01PM (#14740075)
This is potentially misleading.

The US has a "payroll tax", which is paid by companies and is usually a percentage of the salary paid to the employee. You may not consider it a "business tax", but others might.

Also, some cities have business taxes on a per-employee basis.

Additionally, there is potentially a lot of variance in business taxes between one state/province/municipality and another.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by spoonie on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:37AM (#14736292)
How much does Soti pay? How do you know it's bad?
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by DKnoll on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:57PM (#14737652)
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by Cuuugi on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:43PM (#14739008)
Was just going to reference that, they are not well liked on glassdoor.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by DKnoll on Monday July 10, 2017 @05:52PM (#14740030)
I don't think most companies are. I will say I tried applying several years ago and during the initial phone interview I was told I would get exactly my salary at my current company and no raise if I came aboard, before any technical interview. After that I was sent an email telling me exactly how to dress for my second interview... I declined.

I was later in their office on Hurontario near the 401 for a HackerNest meetup. I was speaking with a manager of theirs and mentioned someone who I knew that worked there, to find out he no longer did and he laughed about this person with a colleague.

I love hearing about a Canadian success story but their culture seems a bit off.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by meritt on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:15AM (#14736090)
Our company has been fully remote for 3 years now and I don't think most programmers are capable of remote work. Poor communication, inconsistent work schedules, spending way too much time down rabbit holes that would have been avoided if we were in the same office, and generally not delivering the desired results on a reasonable timeline. In the past 5 hires, we had one employee who actually was a solid remote worker.

I'd love to a) know how to recruit good remote-capable employees and b) how to better manage remotely -- because at this point, we're going to open an office and hire locally.

Interstate taxation, necessary corporate filings/fees/forms, and offering healthcare in multiple states also make being fully remote incredibly difficult unless to restrict employees to being "remote" from the states in which you're already established.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by mring33621 on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:09PM (#14737192)
I don't understand this. I have worked remote and semi-remote for several years at large and small US companies, with internationally distributed teams. Generally, we have run loose SCRUM/agile processes with good results. There is really nowhere to hide. Either the bug is fixed or it's not. The new feature is there, or it's not! You make stories/tickets. You run sprints. You check in code. You see passing or broken builds. You demo to customers or management that serving as proxies for customer interest. There is much imperfection in our processes, but basic visibility is good. The stakeholders can see Jira, Github, Jenkins/Teamcity. The devs cannot hide, so the work gets done.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by shitgoose on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:45PM (#14737544)
i guess it depends on the project. if business side is not too complex and can easily be translated into jiras and stories, then developers should have a good grip on what needs to be done and why. then remote is fine.

but if business requirements, on the other hand, are complex, poorly understood or fluid, then developer will be absolutely lost and will start cranking up patterns instead of solutions. teamcity will be building alright and scrums will roll, but project will be a complete mess heading for a disaster. face to face will not save the day, but to some degree will mitigate lack of communication and understanding of common goal.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by mark212 on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:23AM (#14736157)
there are a few hundred people at Wordpress.com and Automattic that would beg to differ. Give a read to "Year Without Pants," it's very interesting and might help your team make the transition.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by internobody on Monday July 10, 2017 @09:00AM (#14735483)
Not everybody wants to work remote. Some folks enjoy the social aspects of an office. Those people won't be attracted to this location.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by 59nadir on Monday July 10, 2017 @09:18AM (#14735617)
What I'm saying is that a company that hires remotely very likely won't have issues hiring, because they haven't arbitrarily decided that what they do requires everyone to be in the same office.

If you're trying to hire for a place people don't want to work in or if you're having issues with skill levels of new hires, the solution is to widen the net: Not in terms of skill ranges, but in terms of geography.

Not everyone wants to work remotely and that's fine. Especially considering that for the vast majority of people, there is someone better than them out there that desperately wants remote work.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by unityByFreedom on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:08AM (#14736036)
> a company that hires remotely very likely won't have issues hiring, because they haven't arbitrarily decided that what they do requires everyone to be in the same office.

Right, no issues hiring, but maybe some issues managing, communicating effectively, and completing work. You're potentially trading one set of problems for another.

Perhaps they've tried a bit of remote and it hasn't worked for them. We don't know.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by briandear on Monday July 10, 2017 @12:31PM (#14737417)
Issues managing and completing work? How does remote make those issues any different? Do we write code on paper? Does a manager need to physically direct us to our keyboard?

When I hear comments like this I roll my eyes because those issues aren’t remote issues, those are incompetent manager issues – issues that don’t get resolved by simply sitting in an office.

Management, communication and productivity are challenges regardless of work location. Why do many remote companies “make it work” while others fail? My theory is it has nothing to do with on-site vs remote. It’s a scapegoat used by insecure or incompetent managers who lead mediocre employees they shouldn’t have hired in the first place.

If your workers can’t perform in a remote environment, then they aren’t going to suddenly get better by virtue of sharing a ping pong table.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by renlo on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:13PM (#14738775)
I think the big thing is that if you work in an office you can more or less gauge if the person is working by glancing at them. Yes there are better ways to keep track of this, but by simply glancing at the person once every 30 minutes to an hour you can more or less gauge how much they appear to be working.

For remote work a manager has to be more on top of keeping track of his/her employees.

I understand you have strong opinions about this, FWIW I work remotely so yeah I get it.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by unityByFreedom on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:28PM (#14738899)
> I think the big thing is that if you work in an office you can more or less gauge if the person is working by glancing at them.

It's much more than this for me. Coding still requires teamwork, and, short of everyone being able to execute perfectly without in-person discussion, it's useful to communicate with all human gestures being immediately apparent.

I'm surprised at the level of negativity here against office work. I expected people to argue it as another option- not that it should always be the only option for effective teams. I say this as someone who works remotely, and who prefers office work with the right people and not too long of a commute.

I think the bigger issue is just finding the right people with whom you work effectively, not whether work is done in the office or remotely​.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by unityByFreedom on Monday July 10, 2017 @03:22PM (#14738851)
> Why do many remote companies “make it work” while others fail? My theory is it has nothing to do with on-site vs remote. It’s a scapegoat used by insecure or incompetent managers who lead mediocre employees they shouldn’t have hired in the first place.

This strikes me as a bit rude and prejudicial. Not all of us are rockstars who can function effectively without social contact. I personally prefer a central meeting point and face to face communication.

All I'm arguing is that in-person work is preferable by some managers and employees. I'm not arguing that it should dogmatically be applied to everyone.

From your hn profile, I gather you understand yourself to be a bit disagreeable,

> I'm opinionated, inconsistent, irrelevant, irreverent and incontrovertible

I don't see that as a problem myself but I wonder, based on this statement, whether or not you've found working in offices to be effective for you. I'd also wonder if you ever admit to being wrong, and how you react under those circumstances. I'm not convinced you could lay any and all disagreement at the feet of insecure managers.

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by briandear on Monday July 10, 2017 @08:20PM (#14740709)
Fair points. I will concede that one size doesn’t fit all.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by StavrosK on Monday July 10, 2017 @08:59AM (#14735474)
Don't be silly; you can't trust people to do any work unless you're standing over their shoulder.
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by chii on Monday July 10, 2017 @09:00AM (#14735479)
but then how would the boss micromanage you!?
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by placebo on Monday July 10, 2017 @10:36AM (#14736282)
Thank you for a great idea for my next startup - an application to micromanage remote workers. It will be even better than office micromanagement since the boss will have a large screen where all the remote desktops will be visible and under control simultaneously and the boss will be able to assist remote developers get back on track should they ever consider taking any initiative or heaven forbid be creative. It will also make it much easier to spot activities that do not seem to be directly work related. I feel I'm really on to something :-)
Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by marsRoverDev on Monday July 10, 2017 @01:11PM (#14737786)
This is already a thing, Upwork/odesk automatically screenshot freelancer's desktops and make them visible to the clients:

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Y...

Re:Soti – A $1B firm built in a basement by gaius on Monday July 10, 2017 @04:04PM (#14739158)
records the total number of mouse clicks, scroll actions, and keystrokes

What amazing metrics they have! /s