Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by monfrere on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @12:24AM (#14693532)

I have experienced similarly persistent (or arguably even more persistent) unwanted sexual advances from other men, but I certainly didn't feel "assaulted".

As a socially clueless gay man, I was hoping someone could help elucidate the most problematic parts of McClure's behavior here. The two factors that stand out for me are

1) McClure controlled the funding of the agency Yeoh was heading, so he was in a position of power

2) McClure is a man and Yeoh is a woman, so McClure can be assumed to be more physically imposing

Would it be correct to say that these two factors are what make McClure's behavior inappropriate? In any other context, I would consider asking someone something a third time after two "no"s to be an example of annoying badgering, but not necessarily harassment.

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by Lazare on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @05:38PM (#14698460)

> In any other context, I would consider asking someone something a third time after two "no"s to be an example of annoying badgering, but not necessarily harassment.

You would be incorrect. It's not really a grey area.

> I have experienced similarly persistent (or arguably even more persistent) unwanted sexual advances from other men, but I certainly didn't feel "assaulted".

Good for you. But legally in the country I live in, what she described was assault. And if you experienced the same thing, it would also be assault. If you didn't feel it was assault, then you don't have to report it, of course, but that doesn't change what it is.

When someone says no, you can't decide that what they really meant is "would you please grab me and forcibly kiss me". That is not "annoying badgering".

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by alasdair_ on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @12:45AM (#14693595)

It's pretty simple: once you start touching and kissing people that have told you not to, that's assault.

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by pvg on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @12:44AM (#14693590)

Would it be correct to say that these two factors are what make McClure's behavior inappropriate?

No, it would not be, at all.

"At this point, I led him to the door and told him he needs to leave. On the way out, he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner, made contact to kiss me,"

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[dead]

Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by orcdork on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @10:18AM (#14696015)

You're right - no one will believe that you are asking this in good faith, because people can read words.

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by pvg on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @01:51AM (#14693811)

It's not 'asking in good faith' if you ignore what was described and substitute in some completely different sequence of events that was not.

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by monfrere on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @02:13AM (#14693880)

With complete sincerity and honesty, I think either sequence of events I described could match what Yeoh wrote.

If I said to someone, "You really gotta go, sorry", I might well describe that later to a friend using the words Yeoh used: "I told him he needs to leave."

If a guy took two steps right into my personal space as I was up against a sofa and a wall, I might well describe that as "he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner".

If a guy put his hand on my shoulder and leaned in for a kiss -- I could see that being what Yeoh described: he "made contact to kiss me". (Frankly, that's not the phrase I would use; it seems vague.)

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by pvg on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @02:23AM (#14693913)

You keep repeating 'sincerity and honesty' but keep mis-describing what actually happened. This was not 'lean in for a kiss'.

He (rather awkwardly) stayed behind after everyone had left. She went out of her way to be a generous host - offering him a place to stay for the night. He immediately abused that offer by propositioning her. When she asked him to leave, he tried to force himself on her. That's what her story says.

If you don't believe her, have the decency to say so. But stop trying to say it's anything less than a profound abuse of trust instead of misrepresenting it as 'leaning in for a kiss'.

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Re:Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” by monfrere on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @02:39AM (#14693984)

I believe what she wrote, and I believe you do too, which is why we both keep quoting her. I disagree that either of my imagined scenarios are inconsistent with what she wrote. But thanks anyway for trying to answer my questions.

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