News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by unsigner on Saturday July 01, 2017 @01:48AM (#14675603)
Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by Al-Khwarizmi on Saturday July 01, 2017 @04:27AM (#14676039)
Maybe there is a philosophical divide between us, but this argument sounds really weird to me.

From his/her point of view, of course being born to educated parents is luck, if not what else is it? We don't have any choice or any influence on the matter of who we are born to, and we cannot change it with our effort or lack of it.

The fact that from their parents' point of view it's not luck, because they worked for it, strikes me as irrelevant in this context. It can be relevant in a societal context but the post you reply to was talking about the success of an individual and how it can come just by luck, without that individual working especially hard for it.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by slavik81 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @05:23AM (#14676226)
What isn't luck? I only am who I am today because of a combination of nature and nurture. My genes and my environment defined who I am. I had no control over either of those things.

I mean, if I was born on Steve Job's birthday, with Steve Job's genes, to Steve Job's parents, presumably I would be Steve Jobs. From that perspective, it's pure luck I'm not a billionaire. And, similarly, pure luck that I'm not literally Hitler.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by andai on Saturday July 01, 2017 @06:33AM (#14676434)
Do we make our own destiny, or does our destiny make us?
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by jimnotgym on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:41AM (#14676666)
Both, with some effort i could get good a poker. Some games I will lose no matter what because you can only play the hand you are dealt
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by mch82 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @09:42AM (#14677071)
And you can only buy in with the money you have to start with.

Everyone should experience losing to a worse player who won by starting with more chips and therefore had more hands and more opportunities to recover from error.

Then they should experience a fixed buy in, no rebuy tournament where each player starts with equal opportunity.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by rayiner on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:34AM (#14676645)
> What isn't luck?

Bingo!

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by shaftoe on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:16AM (#14676775)
This is fatalism and societies that adopt this attitude fall into some nasty traps. For example, there's no point to solving problems because it's the will of God.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by rayiner on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:25AM (#14676807)
It's not fatalism. It's about recognizing that a more economically even society is warranted because people shouldn't get outsized credit (or be disproportionately punished) for things outside their control.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by sheepmullet on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:55AM (#14676904)
Society gains incredible wealth from the desire to gain outsized credit for those we care about.

Economic evening can quickly become a poison.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by shaftoe on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:52AM (#14676898)
Real life is complicated. Who decides what is in their control? What if it's a combination?
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by verylittlemeat on Saturday July 01, 2017 @02:02PM (#14678137)
It seems like more of a philosophy of humility than fatalism.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by jimnotgym on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:39AM (#14676662)
Who says his parents were not lucky too? No offense intended to OP, but they could have been two rich dropouts who lived their lives in a squat, lapsed into drug addiction and then found one of their estranged parents had died and left them $10m. The myth that rich people are rich because they worked hard is just that, a myth. The myth that a family is rich because generations worked hard is just ignorant.

Please reference the British aristocracy whose wealth is generally attributable to an ancestor being friends with William the Conqueror, as famously said by the Duke of Westminster (Richest man in Britain, recently dies and passed his estate to his son tax free)

"The Duke of Westminster was acutely aware that his own vast wealth was entirely due to luck. When once asked for the secret of financial success, he replied it was to have an ancestor who had been a close friend of William the Conqueror. It may have been that his inability to know how to make amends for this fluke lay behind his discontent."

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/its-better-to-be-a-lotte...

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by humanrebar on Saturday July 01, 2017 @07:58AM (#14676712)
"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

You might be right, but we need to honor people for taking care of the next generation by working hard, being clever, and making good decisions.

And aristocracy aside, people who were "privileged" are generally children of people who make good decisions, take care of their kids, and typically love them. To act like that is all just the roll of the dice is to diminish the hard work and sacrifice it takes to be a good parent and a productive member of society.

What happens when the old men who plant trees are greeted with nihilism and apathy?

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by rainbowmverse on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:07AM (#14676743)
How is being born to those parents not luck? I had to learn self-control, personal finance, investment, entrepreneurship, and so on by myself because no one taught me. I learned it very, very late and it's likely set me back decades.

I had to be exposed to people who knew these things, and who were willing to teach me despite my upbringing. The fact that I'm where I am with growing savings, a small but growing music business, and confidence in my gender identity and sexuality is pure luck.

This all depended on my parents, despite their failings, seeing that computers were going to be a big deal. No matter how bad things got, I always had a computer and an internet connection. If not for meeting the right people at the right times (all online), I'd have ended up in a loveless marriage, an ongoing slide toward abject poverty, and confusion about who I am like everyone else around here.

Now I know luck is mostly about preparation, but no one teaches you preparation around here. We're all about learned helplessness in these parts.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by humanrebar on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:26AM (#14676815)
> I had to learn self-control, personal finance, investment, entrepreneurship, and so on...

Other people have to do this and other similar things. When they have kids and raise them successfully, is that luck? Or is it payoff for that effort carried into the next generation?

Some people are just lucky. Some are just privileged. But it's reductionist and just not good advice to say the whole world is random and decisions don't matter. Things, at a minimum, are a lot more complicated than that. And I think people and communities who do support their offspring deserve more credit than that. They're not just a gust of wind in the right direction one day.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by mch82 on Saturday July 01, 2017 @09:50AM (#14677102)
Yes, because having healthy kids who will be able to make use of the good decisions is luck.

People aren't saying decisions don't matter. They're saying trying to equalize opportunity does matter by mitigating the effects of luck. People are also saying we're best able to mitigate bad luck when we work as a larger society.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by k__ on Saturday July 01, 2017 @08:44AM (#14676869)
I think the problem here is that the do it for their kids.

Family businesses are generally know for planning more for the future than non-family businesses.

But they don't do it because they think it's good for society to build something sustainable for the future. They do it for their kids, which sounds nice first, but is a rather selfish reason.

Yes they go one step further, they don't just want to enrich themselves in person, but also other people who happen to be their kids, but in the end it's just individualism on a higher abstraction level.

Behaviour that is really honourable doesn't just benefit you and your family, it benefits as much non-related people as possible.

I mean, on another level this this the same as with white men only hiring other white men. Sure they grow big companies, are successful and help other people, but people who aren't white or aren't men won't get as much out of it.

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by Bakary on Saturday July 01, 2017 @02:02AM (#14675645)
That just moves the chain of causation one link earlier.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by booleandilemma on Saturday July 01, 2017 @05:24AM (#14676230)
He's not saying his parents are lucky, he's saying that he is lucky.
Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by webnrrd2k on Sunday July 02, 2017 @07:02PM (#14684760)
Was it luck that both of the parents were able to put in long, concerted effort?

(I'm not trying to say that hard work has nothing to do with anything, quite the opposite, but that "luck", as the word is commonly used, also plays a huge part in any ones life)

Re:Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of soc... by eutectic on Saturday July 01, 2017 @02:02AM (#14675642)
It's both.