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Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by SomeHacker44 on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @10:33PM (#14660349)
Sent this to Support at O'Reilly after reading their (to me, insane) e-mail.

Hi O'Reilly,

Just so you know - you've completely lost a customer. After years - decades really - of a highly dedicated customer (whose friends have written books you have published) you threw it all down the drain in one e-mail.

I will never purchase another book published by O'Reilly, or any company associated with O'Reilly, or associated with O'Reilly himself or any of the executives at O'Reilly. I sure as heck am not going to buy any technical books from O'Reilly by Amazon.

The things I liked from O'Reilly, now gone, are:

1. PDF, ePub and Mobi formats, all DRM free, so I could read them in the ideal format for each device I read them on. And, I have a lot of devices: several Macs and PCs, several iPads, several Kindles (used almost exclusively for fiction as technical works are horrible in non-PDF), several phones of various kinds. I could put both the ePub and PDF into iBooks (not my favorite app, but it does sync) and read the ePub on the subway if I wanted, and the PDF on the desktop and iPad (cause, as I said, ePub is terrible for technical books). I like my fully properly typeset color, indexed PDFs!

2. Buy it once, own it. Did you ever see me subscribe to Safari? No? Ever wonder why not? For the same reason that I don't use Adobe products anymore except Lightroom (which is still a purchase not a subscription), and why I dropped JetBrains when they moved to their subscription model and then re-joined them when they went to "Subscription + keep your start of subscription version forever". I don't rent stuff. I buy it and own it. Plain and simple.

I'm glad that there are other publishers out there like Pragmatic Press and Apress that have been publishing good content, because you just lost a highly dedicated customer who always shopped O'Reilly first even for non-O'Reilly books. Congratulations, and shame on you.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by chasing on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:25AM (#14663078)
> Buy it once, own it. Did you ever see me subscribe to Safari? No? Ever wonder why not? For the same reason that I don't use Adobe products anymore except Lightroom...

I like subscriptions, to be honest. I don't need to "own" all this stuff (whatever "own" might mean) -- tech books and specific versions of software tend to have a relatively short shelf-life and I like both O'Reilly's, Adobe's, and JetBrain's models of paying a predictable fee every month and having access to everything they provide. To me it's very freeing.

The last time I purchased an O'Reilly book, digital or physical, was probably... 2002?

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by bigtunacan on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:13PM (#14665572)
I find subscriptions to be a mixed bag. For something like TV/Movies subscription makes sense in general. Most consumers will watch once and then watch something else and this subscription rental service is cheaper than direct buying what you would use.

With technical books, this is a pretty hard sell at the Safari prices. The lowest cost option is $39/month for one user. It's pretty difficult to justify that as I need to read a minimum of one technical book per month, and all of those books would have to be ones available in Safari.

I've used Safaribooks in the past because an employer paid for the team, and I thought it was quite good, but it isn't good enough to replace all of my technical book needs, nor is it worth $39/month.

I, like the parent, have directly purchased quite a few books directly from O'Reilly online in the past. The nice thing was that unlike Amazon I could count on updates if there were corrections and such. Now I will just look elsewhere for books and O'Reilly just loses my money.

Also; IMHO, the O'Reilly article is nothing but PR spin. How is this reinventing anything? Safaribooks has been around for 16 years as a subscription service. There is nothing new here; all they did was kill off a sales channel. That's pretty much the opposite of invention.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by tomku on Thursday June 29, 2017 @12:07PM (#14664358)
I don't mind subscriptions, but a key difference between O'Reilly's subscription model and Adobe/Jetbrains is that my Jetbrains and Adobe subscriptions (both of which I'm happy with!) get me access to the exact same thing I used to pay hundreds of dollars a year for, just on different terms.

Safari is quite radically different from the O'Reilly products I used to pay for. I'm forced to use a browser or their proprietary mobile app to read the books. Only the mobile app support offline reading. It's a completely different value proposition - it costs much more than I would normally spend on O'Reilly ebooks each year, but it would get me access to many more tech books than I'd normally buy or read. Unlike ebook purchases, if I stop subscribing I lose access to everything.

I think it ends up being a good value if you reference a wide variety of books and a very poor one if you have narrower interests. I'd be more interested if they offered a plan that fit my usage profile. I don't care about access to thousands of books with no restrictions, I'd be happy to have access to maybe two to four full books (of my choosing) at a time for a more modest monthly fee. Maybe a credits system like Audible? I think there's a lot of ways to design an ebook subscription service that are more customer-friendly than forcing everyone into an expensive all-or-nothing choice.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by tracker1 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:54PM (#14665929)
For me it was even worse, their mobile app's cache would bork fairly frequently, and the app would misbehave until I cleared it, and on android, it isn't exactly an accessible option, you have to go through layers of settings menus, scroll forever for the app you're looking for to finally clear it. Third time it happened, I cancelled my Safari account.

I want to like Safari as an option, but it's way too limited for me. Frankly I'm only buying 2-3 books a year now, mostly relying on technical articles or online documentation (bad as that may be). I may go through another burst reading 8-10 books over a summer again, but not at the moment.

Although this change doesn't affect me, I mostly bought print books via Amazon anyway, because I find digital copies harder to recall/work through.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by mark_l_watson on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:33AM (#14663131)
I agree with you. I have a Safari subscription and I have mostly stopped buying computer science text books (I buy only 7 or 8 a year now). Now instead of looking on stack overflow or doing a web search, I login to Safari, find a recent book, and read the parts that are useful/interesting.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by gglitch on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:15AM (#14663466)
Same. When I got an email yesterday saying that my ACM membership now gives me complete access to the entire Safari platform and all its content, it was like the last several Christmases all wrapped up in one. Just extraordinary how much useful content just became available to me, and all searchable too. Amazing.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by jlangr on Thursday June 29, 2017 @12:12PM (#14664410)
The subscription model makes sense for the vendors--I get that it costs money to put out new versions and support things.

For me, it depends on the "stuff" and its longevity. E.G. for JetBrains, I'd rather pay ~$600 once and for all, since I doubt I'll move off of it any time soon. Instead, to get updates, I'll now pay $299 per year in perpetuity (after yr 2). So if I use it 10 more years, I plunk out almost $3000.

Even all the little junk adds up. $10 for Zoom, $12.50 for Slack, etc. etc. As a developer / consultant working in many different languages on a few platforms, I'm spending close to $2000 for subscriptions each year. It's a bit much.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by chasing on Thursday June 29, 2017 @01:02PM (#14664870)
Out of curiosity, do you use many pieces of software regularly that you last updated in 2007? Would you use IntelliJ 2007 for work today?

I don't know: $3k for ten years of updates to a key tool I use for work -- that seems low. Like, well below my budget for coffee.

$2k/yr total does seem high. That's higher than my costs for my various work-related subscriptions. But if that $2k provides tools you convert into 50x or 100x that in income... I mean, it seems like money well spent.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by bad_user on Saturday July 01, 2017 @12:03PM (#14677637)
I too have an IntelliJ IDEA subscription and I'm happy to pay money for it BECAUSE if I stopped paying, in my case, the community edition is open source and good enough. I basically could do all of my work with the free version, yet I pay them because I want to see Jetbrains thriving. But if they'd drop the community edition, I'd drop IntelliJ IDEA like a hot potato.

As a developer I got the best value from open source tools. I like the feeling of control that gives.

I do pay for Fastmail and for Dropbox, because my email and data are very important. And a good laptop is a must and I like MacBooks.

But my general rule of thumb is that subscriptions have to give a 10x return of investment to be worth it. And I'm sorry, but most tools don't deliver. You're claiming a 50x-100x return, but that's ridiculous.

As a dev I could do all of my work on Linux, using completely open source tools and I can get by with completely free documentation or by reading source code. I know that because I've been doing it for the better part of my career.

Basically productivity has more to do with knowledge than with tools and I'm not talking of the superficial knowledge that you get from beginner books, but the kind that you get by working on hard problems, reading academic papers and doing deep dives in source code that isn't yours.

So seeing OReilly change their business model, after years of recommending them, well, I'm not a cow to be milked or their personal ATM.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by lucaspm98 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @11:35AM (#14664110)
It's honestly just a personal preference which model you prefer more. I can respect a business choosing either model, but ideally having both options is the best.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by ChickeNES on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:17AM (#14661808)
I won't buy another Pragmatic Press book after buying the Practical Vim second edition Kindle book only to find that the cursor positions are missing throughout the entire book. I posted on their forums about it only to be told that they had submitted the update and it was out of their hands. It's now been a year and a half and the update still hasn't appeared, and as I waited for the non-existent update to appear, I couldn't get a refund.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by AndyHunt on Thursday June 29, 2017 @08:42AM (#14662761)
I'm very sorry to hear that. But unfortunately, support was correct. We can't control when -- or IF -- Amazon ever ships an update that we provide. If you buy from us directly, we ship out updates to books regularly.

In this case, if you email me directly, I'll email you the latest version of that book by hand.

Also, for anyone who wants to own individual ebooks, please help yourself to this coupon: iLoveEbooks, good for 30% off at pragprog.com.

Thanks,

/\ndy

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by MonkeyIsNull on Thursday June 29, 2017 @12:33PM (#14664598)
Yeah, this is why I always buy direct from you guys. You do a bang up job of rolling out updates.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by chris_wot on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:26PM (#14674746)
This is why I also love Pragmatic Press and have also purchased from you in the past. Thank you for being awesome!
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by tomku on Thursday June 29, 2017 @11:18AM (#14663959)
Strongly recommend buying PragProg books directly from them rather than through Amazon. They update their books much more often than other publishers and (as you experienced) Amazon really drags their feet on pushing out those updates, even when they're critically important.

There's other benefits too, like coupons for free or heavily discounted upgrades when new editions of the book are published. I bought the first edition of "Practical Vim" back in 2012 and I've gotten five years of free updates including the second edition.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by lando2319 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:54AM (#14662470)
that is unacceptable, there is an entire chapter on cursor positioning, must be pretty boring without the cursor.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by nobleach on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:38AM (#14663169)
Oh that's terrible! I bought the 1st edition in print, and I can't imagine who ridiculous it would be without the cursor.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by loudouncodes on Thursday June 29, 2017 @12:09PM (#14664379)
Kindles are horrible for tech books. I buy books directly the the pragprog website and they automatically appear in my Dropbox as PDF (there is a choice of format). My books auto-update with typo fixes, etc. automatically.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by ehnto on Thursday June 29, 2017 @04:54AM (#14661719)
It is worth noting JetBrains still offer buy it once and own it licenses, and even their subscription grants you an eternal license to the particular version you were on when you stopped subscribing.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by detaro on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:43AM (#14661920)
> then re-joined them when they went to "Subscription + keep your start of subscription version forever".
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by ehnto on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:00AM (#14661995)
Oh, yeah I missed that. Cheers!
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by nightski on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:44AM (#14661925)
I'm pretty sure it's to the version that is 12 months behind when you stopped subscribing. You have to subscribe for an entire year to own the version when you started.

So if you subscribe for 12 months, and then cancel, you actually have to revert back to a version 1 year old. It's pretty messed up.

Plus the updates have REALLY been lacking. They have missed the quarterly releases regularly and it just feels like very little has actually been added.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by codewithcheese on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:11AM (#14662039)
Your essentially paying for the product at the time of your payment and a 12 month subscription to updates. From that point of view it makes some sense that once your subscription is finished you revert back to the original product you bought you when subscribed. It does seem unnecessarily punitive though.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by 0xTJ on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:44AM (#14671055)
I prefer the model with Matlab, where you pay once, get a year of updates, and keep the last version.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by chasing on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:17AM (#14663022)
> So if you subscribe for 12 months, and then cancel, you actually have to revert back to a version 1 year old. It's pretty messed up.

It would be, but that's not how it works.

I believe you just get to keep using whatever you were using when you stopped payments. You have access to minors updates to that version, but not to major updates from version to version.

I think it's a smart balance.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by nightski on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:23PM (#14665651)
https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

Read that again. It's exactly how it works.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by chasing on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:40PM (#14665799)
You are correct! Sorry for the bad info.
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by clumsysmurf on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @11:25PM (#14660535)
As a Lightroom user myself, I'm a bit worried about that. Since the subscription model began, Lightroom seems to have languished a bit - and its been years since a standalone release.

Lets hope Affinity can put out a competitive DAM tool.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by ghaff on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:21AM (#14663504)
In all fairness, for me at least, Lightroom seems to have gotten to a place where it does what it needs to do with acceptable performance. It doesn't seem to have a lot of obvious functionality holes.Of course, it also doesn't have a lot of competition which may partially explain the pace of change too.

If I had to guess, I suspect Lightroom will end up as only a subscription offering at some point. It's hard to see why it would remain an outlier. I'm sure there would be great hue and cry but I actually use it enough that I wouldn't be all that bothered.

Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by pirocks on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @11:04PM (#14660462)
Random question: What did you switch to when you dropped JetBrains, and did you notice a productivity drop?
Re:O’Reilly Media has stopped retailing books directly on it... by reitanqild on Thursday June 29, 2017 @05:51AM (#14661955)
Former user of Eclipse an IntelliJ, now Netbeans:

For some people (like me) Netbeans is awesome. I love the fact that it can use pom as its own project model and IMO it aligns better with OS keyboard shortcuts (Win and Linux at least) than VS, eclipse and IntelliJ).

Be prepared for weird reactions though: it seems everyone "knows" it is awful.