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Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by cletus on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:08PM (#14614508)
So I have two issues with this post.

1. It needs to separate out Vancouver and the rest. Vancouver is its own bubble of self-perpetuating nonsense propagated by Chinese money.

2. The article states shares are better because companies can plow money back into the business, which completely misses the point because price rises aren't pure speculation. There is a HUGE labour cost in housing such that housing prices track inflation (particularly wage inflation).

And that's the real value in property investment in periods like the 1970s that saw really high inflation.

What's more land represents a largely non-renewable resource. Take Manhattan as a fairly extreme example. They're not making more land to put things on. Other cities like Chicago, LA and especially Atlanta can basically spread forever. But even in those cities, inner city land is irreplaceable and finite.

Now I'm not saying Canada isn't in a bubble or that bubble won't burst. But the author takes a naive stock-centric view of things.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by alacombe on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:14PM (#14614554)
> It needs to separate out Vancouver and the rest. Vancouver is its own bubble of self-perpetuating nonsense propagated by Chinese money.

Not just Chinese money, see my comment below.

To summarize: 1) best climate for Canada, 2) bounded north, west, and south, 3) land already developed, 4) high immigration

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by huhtenberg on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:31PM (#14614684)
Actually it _is_ mostly due to Chinese money and the fact that Vancouver is the closest Canadian metropolis to Hong Kong, which jump-started the Vancouver bubble in 1999.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by davidw on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:47PM (#14614779)
> best climate for Canada

The Okanagan valley seems like it might merit that title as well, being fairly dry and sunny (sagebrush and wine growing!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okanagan

Looks nice! https://goo.gl/maps/nWS4Stwc1WT2

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by YZF on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:42PM (#14615195)
I think Victoria has better climate as well...

The sunshine coast a little up from Vancouver has reasonable climate as well, it's in the rain shadow of the Vancouver Island mountains.

So there's no shortage of land with similar enough climate. It just doesn't have "Vancouver" on it.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by geoka9 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:40PM (#14615175)
It's not bad, but compared to the wild and lush nature around Vancouver, it's pretty barren.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by davidw on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:14PM (#14615423)
> it's pretty barren.

Given that it's nice and dry, that's a feature, not a bug!

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by petecox on Friday June 23, 2017 @12:14AM (#14617033)
Vancouver Island has Ewoks! Call me a tree-hugger but I'd favour a forest walk beneath a canopy of 800 year old trees over gaining a tan in Kelowna any day.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by aianus on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:49PM (#14614800)
The climate in Vancouver is horrific. Rain and clouds for months on end with no respite.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by bdamm on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:13PM (#14614953)
True, but it's one of the comparatively few places in Canada that absolutely never experiences -20c, and normally doesn't have snow on the ground for longer than a couple days at a time (except this last winter.) Most other Canadian cities go through ice-building cycles in the late Autumn that can persist in neighborhood streets all the way through to late Spring.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by alacombe on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:15PM (#14614966)
True, but that's still better than -30degC and 2m of snow during winter; and +40degC (without humidex) during summer. So for Canada, yeah, that's pretty good.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by diogenescynic on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:55PM (#14616446)
It's all relative. I'd rather live in Vancouver than Arizona or Texas. I'd rather deal with rain than extreme heat.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by verelo on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:04PM (#14614897)
Seriously, it's like Seattle but without the jobs.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by pinewurst on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:17PM (#14614983)
And the jobs there don't pay very well. The food is wonderful though, better than Seattle IMHO and it's a lovely city in general.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by verelo on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:31PM (#14615508)
Yeah, in my experience most of the US has shitty food. Take NY as an example, if you want an expensive meal you can get great food, but if you want a quick and healthy lunch you find yourself struggling.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by linkregister on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:35PM (#14616359)
Almost any local New Yorker will know where to get a quick, healthy, $7-10 lunch.

Someone in town for the day might have to open Yelp: https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Cheap+Fast+Lunch&find_...

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by verelo on Thursday June 22, 2017 @10:28PM (#14616766)
I obviously need new friends.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by acchow on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:58PM (#14615307)
Data shows Vancouver gets 10% less sunshine than Seattle. That's horrific.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by querulous on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:18PM (#14616029)
it's not great but if it's sunny in vnancouver it means it's a nice day to be outside. there's almost no days where it's sunny but too hot or cold to use your patio/deck/balcony
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by acchow on Thursday June 22, 2017 @09:16PM (#14616531)
You mean because there's no sun from December to March?
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by EnFinlay on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:45PM (#14615213)
Horrific is a major exaggeration since the weather is the least extreme of all major Canadian cities. Rain and clouds for months isn't horrific, it's bland.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by vorg on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:01PM (#14615330)
Australia and New Zealand are in the same boat as Canada, and Sydney and Auckland as Vancouver. The countries have high immigration, especially Chinese. Those cities are bounded and the land already developed, but climate doesn't seem to be a factor for their popularity because there's other places in those countries with better climate.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by elchief on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:14PM (#14614961)
> high immigration

ya, 5000 entire people last year in CoV...

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by bhouston on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:16PM (#14614567)
> There is a HUGE labour cost in housing

Not for cities like Vancouver. The cost is land. That is where the inflation is. Whenever you price out a house in the far outskirts, it is crazy cheap in comparison.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by amyjess on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:58PM (#14615306)
> Other cities like Chicago, LA and especially Atlanta can basically spread forever.

In the case of LA, not really. The whole city is surrounded by mountains, and there are just a few mountain passes connecting most of Los Angeles County and Orange County to the rest of California [0]. The only part of Los Angeles County that hasn't been fully developed is the Antelope Valley around Palmdale, and that's separated from the rest of the county by the San Gabriel Mountains.

I guess there's some room left to sprawl in the Inland Empire too, but that's technically not part of the LA metro area, and it still has the problem of the mountain passes bottlenecking any commute between LA and the IE, so businesses will have to embrace the edge city model and start locating their headquarters in the Inland Empire.

[0] Here's a satellite map: https://goo.gl/maps/oK9Kt3zb3vr

(Edit: Oh, and as for Chicago... they're not quite as free as landlocked cities. They've got Lake Michigan to the east, and they can't go too far north because then they'll run into Milwaukee's suburbs. That just leaves the west and south. Landlocked cities can sprawl in all four directions.)

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by hamstercat on Thursday June 22, 2017 @03:54PM (#14614832)
I don't have the source, but I've read that the amount of Chinese money in Vancouver's real estate is usually blown out of proportion. The latest number released by the province I've seen suggests that foreign investments in the housing market is close to 15% in Vancouver (still way more than anywhere else in Canada by a wide margin). Not to say that it has no effect, but still a thing to keep in mind.

Also, the stock market historical average of annual return is 6-7%, whereas it's lower for real estate. As with anything, diversification is the most important point.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by b1tr0t on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:16PM (#14614974)
There isn't a lot of good data on foreign transactions because regional and federal governments have worked hard to make sure data was not collected on it. Popular pressure is slowly changing that.

One observation I have is that even if it's just single digit as a %, it can exert very significant pressure on the market. A bubble is a mob effect. It begins with some properties purchased at prices the local market can't support, regional opportunists jump in seeing the opportunity for flipping, then fear of missing out, especially for first time buyers, results in a stampede as people see the ladder going up and leverage themselves to get the last rung before it goes out of reach. But there was never any real scarcity in the first place.

Point being, a small amount of foreign investment can have a leveraged influence on local markets.

I do think the "foreign" word there gets too much attention though. The more important question to ask is - should property as an investment be something we economically encourage. How much economic activity does a $5M 3 bedroom house actually generate? I don't pretend to know the answer but I think this focus on the "foreign" bogeyman is blocking us from having more important conversations about the role of real-estate in economic policy.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by lawnchair_larry on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:09PM (#14614936)
From what I've heard and read, the numbers released by the province were debunked and rejected by pretty much everybody. Having visited a few times, I don't see how the number could possibly be so low.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by torAnon on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:31PM (#14615507)
Its because they don't record the all too typical situation of a Canadian Citizen with financing via foreign relatives/friends.

Eg. Chinese family has one member whose been granted citizenship. They all come together to pool money, transfer it to the Canadian relative, purchase together, profit(for now).

All thats recorded is a Canadian purchased a home, "how" they purchased is not yet a government issue.

The government/banks/real estate industry has known about this for years...

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by quantdev on Friday June 23, 2017 @07:37AM (#14618422)
It's not the author taking a stock-centric view; it's the author pushing back against the conventional wisdom of the value of property investment.

As Shiller demonstrates and you even agree to, home prices track inflation over the long term. Further, Shiller -- in Irrational Exuberance -- shows that this is largely because of the money some owners reinvest in keeping their homes modern, so this isn't even a passive tracking of inflation, on average.

The arguments about finite land mass, etc, have been said for decades and I suspect one of two things is true: (1) It's wrong: Manhattan continues to build vertically and while it has a high average rent, the median and lower quantiles are actually much lower than on the West Coast, for example. (2) It's already priced by the market.

Finally, stocks also perform very well in high-inflation environments, so this isn't unique to property. The one difference is that most people have 5-to-1 leverage on their homes, so they enjoy outsized gains, but this is a risk as much as a benefit.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by yannickt on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:15PM (#14650437)
> There is a HUGE labour cost in housing such that housing prices track inflation (particularly wage inflation).

Prices have risen _way_ above inflation in Vancouver and Toronto the last 10-15 years. Incomes have been virtually flat, possibly even dropped in real terms after adjusting for inflation.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by rainbowmverse on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:45PM (#14615212)
>> Other cities like Chicago, LA and especially Atlanta can basically spread forever.

Atlanta's spread slowed to a crawl once it got to about an hour's drive outside the perimeter. If you pay close attention on Google Maps (satellite view), you'll see the growth hugs major highways and interstates, and falls off sharply after a point. There is definitely a limit.

This might change if the NIMBY crowd dies off or moves away and MARTA is finally able to expand to the metro area.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by amyjess on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:51PM (#14615256)
What surprises me is that Dallas hasn't had this problem. We're sprawling farther away from the center than ever, and long commutes downtown aren't really a problem because businesses are choosing to locate themselves in the suburbs. This was recently underscored by a number of large businesses, Toyota being the most well-known, relocating themselves to the Dallas area and planting their headquarters in Plano and Frisco. In fact, we've hit the point where it's not uncommon for people in or right next to the city proper commuting to suburbs farther out than where they live.

Why hasn't Atlanta embraced the concept of edge cities [0] as Dallas has?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_city

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by rainbowmverse on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:57PM (#14615299)
Atlanta has these. They're roughly where the development stops. Winder (where I live), Gainesville, etc. It's probably an environment thing. Past the edge, it's all trees, hills, farms, and mansions. That makes it hard to get the big, cheap, contiguous spaces developers like.

Caterpillar did open a plant outside the edge, but it's also close to Athens with its airport and relative proximity to both a port and a major city.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by amyjess on Thursday June 22, 2017 @05:13PM (#14615412)
Looking up Winder on a map makes the problem a little more clear: the layout of roads there is awful. There's no nearby freeways, and the major roads look like spaghetti.

The Dallas area did a very good job of organizing outward sprawl into rings like a sequoia. There are edge cities, sometimes more than one, within each ring (Far North Dallas & Richardson, Plano, Frisco & McKinney, Prosper...). Freeways delineate the rings (380 isn't a freeway yet, but plans are in the works), six-lane arterial roads are laid out in a nice, neat grid even extending into the exurbs' exurbs, and subdivisions are packed closely together to get more use out of the same space (I honestly can't stand how suburbs in eastern states look rural to my eyes... I grew up in a suburb filled with single-family homes with yards, and we still don't waste space like eastern states do).

For example, compare the northern sprawl of Dallas https://goo.gl/maps/qhK6geVaYKz with the northeastern sprawl in Atlanta: https://goo.gl/maps/PZsPw6YUyD92

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by tepidandroid on Thursday June 22, 2017 @07:54PM (#14616175)
> It needs to separate out Vancouver and the rest. Vancouver is its own bubble of self-perpetuating nonsense propagated by Chinese money.

It seems to be you who is perpetuating the non-sense. Provide some actual data and proof of this and then we can talk. No anecdotes please.

Counter proof: since BC's 15% foreigner tax was implemented, has the Vancouver housing market cooled off? No. To the contrary, it has actually heated up even more. This indicates that the "illegal Chinese dirty money" that the wonderful local Vancouverites keep spouting is not, in fact, the driver of this growth. It's too bad because they are such an easy racial scapegoat, aren't they?

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by cjak on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:11PM (#14616251)
> Counter proof: since BC's 15% foreigner tax was implemented, has the Vancouver housing market cooled off? No. To the contrary, it has actually heated up even more. This indicates that the "illegal Chinese dirty money" that the wonderful local Vancouverites keep spouting is not, in fact, the driver of this growth. It's too bad because they are such an easy racial scapegoat, aren't they?

It could also be possible that the Chinese market for Vancouver houses is inelastic enough that the foreigner tax doesn't have teeth.

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by pcr0 on Thursday June 22, 2017 @08:29PM (#14616324)
Pretty sure this is the case. Even with the tax, Vancouver prices per sqft are a bargain compared to what you would get in Hong Kong.
Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by chx on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:07PM (#14614920)
> self-perpetuating nonsense propagated by Chinese money.

[citation needed.]

Re:Canada's Housing Bubble Will Burst by toomuchtodo on Thursday June 22, 2017 @04:15PM (#14614969)