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Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by ocschwar on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:55AM (#14595096)
> Running a clothes dryer unattended is not safe. Those appliances are among the more common causes of house fires.

A smart-ified clothes dryer is more attended to than a conventional one.

>And as a practical matter, busy parents with small children can't defer running the washer and dryer. It needs to finish in time to fold and put away the clothes, and you often need to run multiple loads

I'm one of them. I can't always defer, true enough. But I can often enough.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by deadbunny on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @10:59AM (#14595124)
> smart-ified

I don't care how smart your dryer is, if it catches on fire it's not going to do shit.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by DannyBee on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:01PM (#14598047)
"I don't care how smart your dryer is, if it catches on fire it's not going to do shit." Basically all of these are caused blocked ducts, which is trivial to make smart by including a flow/pressure meter.

It's basically 100% detectable. If you are worried about failure of sensor, this is a field where they use sensors in ridiculously contaminated and abrasive environments (material handling, etc).

"Lint" is neither.

(compared to what else we use flexible tube to handle as a material)

So you can simply prevent the fire in the first place. Much more so than pretty much any other appliance.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by ams6110 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:18PM (#14599915)
You don't need smart to do that. A simple mechanical pressure switch can handle it. Also dryers have several high limit switches that will cut out if the temperature gets to high. None of this requires a silicon brain or internet connection.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by skybrian on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:20AM (#14595262)
I'm wondering how this works. Do you really watch over your dryer just to make sure it doesn't catch on fire? If that were really a problem, wouldn't a fire alarm do a better job than an easily distracted human?
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by michaelt on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:38AM (#14595419)

  Do you really watch over your dryer just
  to make sure it doesn't catch on fire?
In my house, how it works is if an appliance in another room catches fire, I'm alerted by the smoke alarm and I can choose a correct response - such as a fire blanket, turning off the electricity, and/or calling the fire brigade.

The purpose of me being in the building or nearby is to ensure a correct and timely response. If the fire brigade are called by a real person and asked to attend, they'll know it's not a false alarm.

But when I've seen the fire brigade called by automated systems? False alarms every time. And the police don't even bother to come out to a burglar alarm or car alarm going off - it's got to be confirmed as a genuine alarm by a neighbour or alarm monitoring service.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by mikeash on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @01:52PM (#14596850)
This seems awfully paranoid. Dryers are responsible for less than 1% of house fires in the US. If my house is typical, then my odds of experiencing a dryer fire are maybe .002% per year. A substantial portion of these happen because people don't clean their lint, so you can cut the risk even more by just not being negligent.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by skybrian on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:57AM (#14595625)
I think this might just be disagreement over what "unattended" means. To me, being in the same house (and not in the same room) is closer to "unattended" and perfectly normal.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by euyyn on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @01:56PM (#14596891)
The context in this conversation is leaving the drier on while sleeping at night, though.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by PeterisP on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @08:08AM (#14602979)
I see no significant difference between sleeping at night or watching TV in another room - in either case, I'd notice the dryer malfunction only by the sound of the fire alarm.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by Naritai on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:08PM (#14599037)
right, which means a fire alarm is a perfectly good method of alerting a nearby human of a problem.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by bryondowd on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:30AM (#14595355)
Good point. Although I suppose you might still want to be home rather than running it while you're at work or otherwise away, to have a chance of grabbing the extinguisher and/or calling the fire department before your whole home is lost. I'm not sure how common it is to have smoke detectors automatically notify the fire department, and I expect there's issues there similar to burglar alarms, with false alarms being far more common than real ones, which affects response time.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by goodcanadian on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:12PM (#14597017)
I'm not sure how common it is to have smoke detectors automatically notify the fire department . . .

It is extremely common to have smoke detectors integrated with the burglar alarm. I do not know how common monitored alarms are in private homes, however: I personally can only think of one person I know that has that.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by bryondowd on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:27AM (#14595318)
The main cause of dryer fires is lint buildup resulting from poor maintenance, cleaning, or installation, from what I understand. Built up lint is an ideal material for starting a fire. I suppose if you added some sort of sensors, you could make a smart dryer that demands to be cleaned before running if it detects a significant buildup. Might be able to largely mitigate the risk, barring active user circumvention. I'm just spitballing, though.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by Naritai on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:09PM (#14599041)
Yeah, I would guess 'lint buildup would impact airflow through the lint screen, which would be easily monitored.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by ajarmst on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:16AM (#14595228)
Well, if you equip it with a halon suppression system in a sealed and heavily sensored room, it might. Of course, now your dryer is your single most expensive possession by an order of magnitude. Which always seems to start being the problem when people propose "smart" solutions. "Well, first we need a class IV AI and on-demand local fusion energy, then everything gets easy..."
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @01:39PM (#14596694)
I mean, you could just put in a few more heat sensors.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by ajarmst on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:40PM (#14597292)
But the dryer knowing that it, and most of your possessions, are about to cease to exist isn't really useful information. It doesn't remove the obligation that it be supervised. Dryer fires start quickly, often due to lint build-up, and can start when the dryer is operating in its normal temperature regime. Thus the sensors would often only be helpful in identifying that a fire has started, not in preventing it. Thus, unless the dryer has some way of intervening in the fire (like my admittedly sarcastic halon system), its "smart"ness isn't valuable for this failure mode.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:31PM (#14598331)
> Dryer fires start quickly, often due to lint build-up, and can start when the dryer is operating in its normal temperature regime.

Lint does not catch fire at 140F.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by ajarmst on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @07:29AM (#14602757)
You seem to have very strong opinions about this issue. I'm not convinced they are well-supported by either experience or data.

"Task 4. Determine Characteristics Required for Lint Ignition

Lint that accumulates on the heater housing can easily ignite under conditions of a failed high-limit thermostat and a blocked exhaust vent. Lint accumulating near the heater intake can ignite before the high-limit thermostat switches the heater element off. Lint ingested by the heater and embers expelled from the heater outlet can easily ignite additional lint or fabric in the air stream, resulting in additional embers in the dryer system and exhaust vent."

Source: https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/117075/dryer.pdf

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 21, 2017 @12:36PM (#14605318)
Oh, looks like the top result for dryer temperature was just wrong. And the various numbers I'm seeing for what temperatures are dangerous for lint are wildly inconsistent.

But I can say for sure that those tested dryers are getting much hotter than necessary. Look at the designs on page 6 and 7. Small heater boxes with thin hot coils. If you redesigned it as a big block of heatsink fins with the heating element buried inside, you'd be a lot further away from causing ignition. It would cost more, but in a sub-$100 way.

So I'm unsure at this point. I don't have the resources to test exactly what temperatures are necessary and safe, and which one is higher.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by jacquesm on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:03PM (#14598578)
Welcome to the science of fire. If you pump energy into a system faster than you are removing it then you are heating it up, if you pump energy out faster than you are adding it then you are cooling something down.

This is how hay bales that are a little moist will catch fire, the digestive process (which is slow but exothermal) of the bacteria in the center of the slightly rotting bale of hay are so well insulated from the outside world by the rest of the hay that the temperature will at some point exceed the ignition temperature of the hay and then you have spontaneous combustion.

Something very similar can happy to driers if the exit ducts become more clogged than a certain percentage.

And let's not even talk about gas fired dryers (does anybody still use those other than dry cleaning services?).

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:39PM (#14599190)
> Welcome to the science of fire. If you pump energy into a system faster than you are removing it then you are heating it up, if you pump energy out faster than you are adding it then you are cooling something down.

That's why I said "more temperature sensors". It's possible to design a relatively-standard dryer where no part ever gets above boiling, even when the output is completely blocked, giving you a huge margin of error.

Heat in a dryer is all externally applied. It can't build up on its own.

Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by ams6110 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:21PM (#14599935)
I have had gas dryers whenever I've had a house with gas service. They dry faster and cost a lot less to operate.
Re:Storage ‘not fundamentally needed’ for future power grid,... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:08PM (#14598623)
> Lint does not catch fire at 140F.

No but sparks that can ignite lint are common risks around operating dryers (both wiring faults and static discharges are issues.)