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Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by reilly3000 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:32PM (#14566224)
I think this is mostly targeted at prepaid Visa cards which are very commonly used for money laundering.

I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist.

I think the bigger question is 'does dark money enable crime?'. If the answer is yes, then we as a tech community need to consider the impact of legitimizing cryptocurrent and enabling unfettered criminal enterprise.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by sbuttgereit on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:44PM (#14566282)
Along the way, we also need to consider what is considered crime and what is not. Not all 'crime' as defined by law, is immoral. And sometimes, enabling certain activities can be very illegal, yet profoundly moral. Of course, we all likely won't agree on what counts as illegal/moral.

Your point is not invalid, just more nuanced or complex perhaps that your direct point suggests.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by matt4077 on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:51AM (#14566747)
You don't want to use raw technological power to achieve your aims. The political process is actually alive and well. It's just that there happen to be too many people insisting on their wrong opinions, at least in regard to drug policy.

Note that societies have actually come a long way in the last decade or two, current setbacks notwithstanding. With all the noise the certainly not perfect US political system produces, it's easy to overlook how many things actually work quite well, both in the US and in other democratic countries.

Other crimes that cryptocurrencies may be useful for are obviously tax evasion, and any sort of money landing from all sorts of schemes. I really don't see a reason why we should rethink the basic principle of fair taxation, or, in general, why we should abandon the current system based on law for one where might is right.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by theossuary on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:00AM (#14566783)
Isn't that the entire point of democracy though? If enough people hold the "wrong" opinion it becomes the right one?
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by matt4077 on Friday June 16, 2017 @02:13AM (#14566988)
It's more or less true that democratic societies tend to have developed in a direction we'd consider 'right', and I'd even agree that this direction is "right" in a sort of universal sense. But it's not actually the majority opinion that makes it "right".

In fact, the most impressive advancements have been in protecting people from the "tyranny of the majority". Things like due process even for terrorists, or presidents, or pedophiles would probably not get a majority.

Think about it: the system based on majority-rule happens to be the best if you're generally hated by everyone. If people like you, Russia doesn't actually feel that different :)

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by sbuttgereit on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:24AM (#14566855)
Like slavery or segregation?
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by blazespin on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:16PM (#14566409)
It's a crime if you live there and it's considered the law of the land that you have broken. Don't like it and can't effect change lawfully? Move.

This is the best explanation I have seen. Morality is a completely artificial construct. There is no such thing as something being provably evil or good. It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers.

I love crypocurrency as much as the next guy, but I also enjoy the happiness I get from living in a law abiding community.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by alexbecker on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:51PM (#14566558)
Do you really believe there is nothing right or wrong regardless of what your peers say? If so, I find you deeply troubling.

Most things aren't math equations. All distinctions in the real world are messy, seemingly arbitrary at some level. Can you define what it means for something to be alive or dead? I seriously doubt it. Yet we do not dispute the existence of such distinctions. The concept of life improves our understanding of the world despite its slipperyness.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by bumblebeard on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:17AM (#14566644)
Most utilitarians turn out not to actually think that way in real-life situations so I wouldn't worry about it. Moral realism is tied to religion for a lot of people and so some non-religious folks just reject it out of hand, which I think is a mistake.

IMO, moral truth exists as much as scientific truth we just interact with/discover it differently. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is a good place to start if the topic interests you:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-realism/

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-anti-realism/

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by nickpsecurity on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:13AM (#14566831)
"Most utilitarians turn out not to actually think that way in real-life situations so I wouldn't worry about it."

I agree based on lots of personal experience with and research on people who talked utilitarian but acted different when the law's enforcers were focused on them. I fought with myself over this in many situations balancing the struggle between my own survival/well-being vs supporting principles. Takes discipline and sacrifice to practice utilitarianism. What it took me led me to be suspicious of people who preach it who spontaneously do what benefits them esp at others' expense even in small ways.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by blazespin on Friday June 16, 2017 @08:24PM (#14573556)
Yeah, sure sounds like science to me: "It is worth noting that, while moral realists are united in their cognitivism and in their rejection of error theories, they disagree among themselves not only about which moral claims are actually true but about what it is about the world that makes those claims true. Moral realism is not a particular substantive moral view
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by wyager on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:11AM (#14566626)
> Don't like it and can't effect change lawfully? Move.

Great idea. Why bother ever trying to improve things where you live when you can just move to fantasy-land where the laws are in perfect agreement with your beliefs?

This argument makes even less sense in the US since the government makes you get permission, provide years of tax records, and pay them a huge amount of money (over $2000 plus some large percentage of your holdings) to renounce your citizenship. You can't "just leave".

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by derefr on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:35PM (#14566478)
> It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers.

Those two ideas aren't inherently contradictory. It's pretty easy to ground metaethics by asserting something like "human genetics encodes an instinctual preference function for social mores into human brains." Then, "morality" is an objective fact: an objective fact about what actions are acceptable to (neurotypical) humans.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by aaron-lebo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:36PM (#14566492)
Yeah and a century ago social mores said interracial marriage was immoral and neurotypical humans of the time believed it because society. Ain't nothing objective there.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by derefr on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:38PM (#14566504)
Social mores in one particular culture said that. We don't look at what particular cultures think when trying to figure out what morality is. Instead, we look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_universal s — beliefs shared by every culture across every time period, even ones completely disconnected from outside contact for millenia.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by aaron-lebo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:42PM (#14566518)
Ok, so what out of that link isn't incredibly abstract?

Special speech for special occasions

You want to define that?

* Toys, playthings

* Death rituals, mourning

* Feasting

* Body adornment

* Hairstyles

* Art

It's a good thing toys and art are culturally universal, but they don't say a thing about morals. It's just that it's hard to think of many things that are actually universally accepted as moral. Even lying is acceptable in various religions in different contexts. We as societies can't even agree on what is and isn't murder or if it's acceptable.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by gameshot911 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:32PM (#14566466)
Sure. Tomorrow morning you wake up and your country has mandated DNA testing for all citizens. Anyone who does not have approved genomes will be summarily sterilized 'for the good of the future of the citizenry'. Oh, and they also made it illegal to avoid the DNA testing, and to move out of your current location.

What then?

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by closeparen on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:35AM (#14566696)
Statutes are a lagging (not leading) indicator of consensus about acceptable behavior. Law is evidence to help establish that society, at least at what time, found a certain behavior unacceptable. It also has to be willing to enforce it rigorously and consistently today.

It's good hygeine to repeal or amend laws that we aren't willing to enforce, but it doesn't always happen. If it does happen, it's almost always after, not before, doing what the law prohibits becomes widespread and socially acceptable.

It might be morally necessary to abstain from behaviors your community finds unacceptable. It might also be morally necessary for the executive branch to enforce the laws exactly as written, no matter how poorly they track moral consensus, until the laws are changed.

It doesn't follow that it's morally obligatory to follow the law just because it's the law.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by petre on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:38AM (#14566706)
> It's not a math equation, but rather the consensus of your peers.

Make that the consensus of your peers' so called representatives in Congress, because we're not direct democracies like ancient Greece. Politicians took care to subvert the power from the people to line up their pockets.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by mirimir on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:36AM (#14566702)
Nonviolent resistance is also a viable option. See Gandhi.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by mrb on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:42PM (#14566274)
Any technology enables crime. Have you considered the impact of legitimizing cars, weapons, phones, audio recorders, drones, etc?

Edit: not sure how to interpret the replies to my post ("currency enables crime"). Yes the dollar/euro/pound/cryptocurrency enable crime. Should we ban them all? No. Both government-controlled currencies and cryptocurrencies enable economic activity, hence create wealth, and are a net benefit to society. Besides more illegal activity is conducted (in absolute and relative numbers) in fiat than in cryptocurrency so that's even less of a reason to ban cryptocurrency.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by senectus1 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:47PM (#14566298)
Any Currency enables crime.

in fact I'd go as far as to say that it's a driving force for Crime...

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by Kinnard on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:13AM (#14566632)
"If it can't be used for evil, it isn't a super power"
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by xg15 on Friday June 16, 2017 @02:35AM (#14567045)
> Besides more illegal activity is conducted (in absolute and relative numbers) in fiat than in cryptocurrency.

(emphasis mine)

I'm honestly surprised by that. (Especially after it's seems to be the go-to method of payment for ransomware which should lead to huge amounts of illegal activity.)

Could you link some sources?

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by cbanek on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:13PM (#14566400)
Currency definitely enables crime. There are a few reasons why institutions (government, banks) are crazy about digital currency: auditing (taxes, crime), fees, negative interest rates.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by closeparen on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:43AM (#14566726)
We are in the process of delegitimizing cars, weapons are already taboo and illegal in liberal cities, Congress keeps trying to open phones to law enforcement, HN is enamored of European-style privacy laws that make it an onerous legal liability to have the capability for audio recording (or any other data collection), and drones were heavily curtailed by the FAA with widespread public support.

We already have currency, and it works much better than any cryptocurrency. The specific problem cryptocurrency solves is vulnerability to law enforcement (i.e. central control).

I would also be concerned if someone started selling weapons whose defining feature was their resistance to homicide investigators.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:04PM (#14566369)
we as a tech community

There is no we that comprises a coherent tech community.

People with malicious intent are also able to write code and assemble hardware.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by ceejayoz on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:40PM (#14566268)
> I think this is mostly targeted at prepaid Visa cards which are very commonly used for money laundering.

I've never heard of prepaid Visa cards being called a "tumbler of digital currency", which the bill specifically deals with. It seems clear whoever wrote this knows about Bitcoin etc.

> I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist.

It's well documented that they're poking around on social media for information on folks. You've posted that you have one on an account whose profile mentions your employer's name. I wouldn't be shocked if they could connect the dots pretty trivially.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by ThrustVectoring on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:46AM (#14566917)
The amendment also covers "prepaid access devices", which is apparently the technically-specific way to talk about things like prepaid Visa cards. Quote:

>A prepaid access program is an arrangement through which one or more persons acting together provide access to funds or the value of funds that have been paid in advance and can be retrieved or transferred at some point in the future through an electronic device or vehicle, such as a card, code, electronic serial number, mobile identification number, or personal identification number.

https://www.occ.treas.gov/news-issuances/bulletins/2011/bull...

So basically, the grandparent is asserting that the main thrust of the bill is the amendments that make prepaid cards covered.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by cabaalis on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:46PM (#14566294)
During the last election cycle I stripped all of my online social media of any real life references. Except for my name on Facebook and my LinkedIn account, which I never use for non-work stuff or private opinions. Definitely doesn't make their work impossible, but why make it easy?
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by KGIII on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:21AM (#14566852)
Do you believe they really deleted it? Removing it from their website doesn't mean it was removed from their servers. I'd be skeptical, where I you.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by petre on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:53AM (#14566755)
Having FB and Linkedin accounts with your real name is already making it easy.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by prawn on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:55AM (#14566943)
"I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist."

"Do you have a private cloud? Do you own cryptocurrency?"

Watch your reaction while you realise that you've likely committed an offence if you deny it, etc.

One day in the near future, they likely have algorithms giving them a likelihood that you fit the type, and that will suggest their line of questioning - whether it's about data storage or propensity to work while on a tourist visa, or whatever else.

In the short term I imagine it will work, but I don't think it will work forever.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by lisper on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:42PM (#14566275)
> does dark money enable crime?

How can there be any doubt in your mind that the answer is yes? The whole ransomware industry is only viable because bitcoin has succeeded.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by mirimir on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:42AM (#14566721)
Well, the Silk Road and its replacements have been orders of magnitude larger than the "ransomware industry". And there's arguably no moral requirement to obey immoral laws. So overall, cryptocurrencies have been a huge win for freedom.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by slg on Friday June 16, 2017 @02:00AM (#14566952)
Are you arguing laws against money laundering are immoral? Because they are a practical requirement in order to levy any type of income tax. Or are you claiming that Silk Road style sites are only illegal because of immoral laws? I get that the HN crowd generally has a libertarian and anti-prohibition bent, but outside of illicit drugs there are some inarguably horrible things being sold on those sites like child porn and murders for hire. Doesn't the government and law enforcement have a moral requirement to combat that?
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by mirimir on Friday June 16, 2017 @03:07AM (#14567148)
Yes, laws against "money laundering" are immoral. They're an invasion of privacy. And income taxation is a joke. There are tax breaks for the wealthy. And they leverage them to pay even less. Cryptocurrencies democratize tax avoidance.

I suspect that most murder-for-hire offers have either been scams or entrapment. And regarding child porn, I can't imagine why anyone would pay for it. There's so much out there for free, after all.

Governments do whatever governments do. But so do people.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by slg on Friday June 16, 2017 @04:13AM (#14567378)
Fair enough I guess. I don't see much value in discussing this with a person who thinks taxation is a joke or that people buying child porn shouldn't be a concern because it can be acquired for free. Our opinions are already too far apart to find much common ground.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by lisper on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:52AM (#14566935)
I don't deny that. But being a win for freedom and being a win for crime are not mutually exclusive.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by mirimir on Friday June 16, 2017 @03:12AM (#14567167)
I can't quite parse that :(

But I believe that "being a win for freedom and being a win for crime" necessarily overlap. Maybe entirely. Because anything that allows some authorities to curtail crime necessarily allows other authorities to curtail freedom.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by lisper on Friday June 16, 2017 @08:06PM (#14573474)
> I can't quite parse that :(

Sorry. It means we agree.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by petre on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:33AM (#14566693)
> I keep my wallets in a private cloud. I don't see how a border agent could know they exist.

When you exchange over $10k in cryptocurrency to actual cash, the exchange will have the obligation if reporting it. Also don't even think of breaking the exchange into 10 transactions of $1k because that too is covered by the law.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by hilyen on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:45PM (#14566286)
>'does dark money enable crime?'

all currency does this.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:51PM (#14566319)
Has any crime happened with IMG Special Drawing Rights?
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by wfunction on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:48PM (#14566300)
Some more than others, e.g. see Bitcoin and ransomware proliferation
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:51PM (#14566321)
As we saw with WannaCry: the type of people who fall victim to ransomware attacks are also the type of people who aren't really able to use Bitcoin.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by wfunction on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:54PM (#14566332)
That is completely irrelevant. The point is this is a reason to better regulate or ban digital currency, because it's massively helping the proliferation of ransomware. That people who get attacked by ransomware don't know how to use such currency is such a bizarrely irrelevant statement.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by arx1422 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:55PM (#14566334)
This is one of the most responsible comments I've ever seen on Hacker News.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by matt_wulfeck on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:43PM (#14566280)
They don't have to know about them. They just have to ask you about them. I don't know the exact legality around border agents, but I can't imagine lying to them working out well for you.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by petre on Friday June 16, 2017 @12:55AM (#14566760)
Nice try. Lying to the feds is already a crime punishable by up to 5 years in jail if I'm not mistaken.
Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by KGIII on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:41AM (#14566902)
I am pretty sure that only applies to certain federal agents - while under investigation, and on forms that are official submissions.

There are, as near as I recall, certain other specific lies that are in the State's jurisdiction, such as giving the police a fake name. Something like 15 years ago, SCOTUS also ruled against a guy who refused to give the police his name when he was questioned.

For the most part, you can tell a regular cop all sorts of lies, with some exceptions like your name. Lying to the FBI is against the law, if you're being questioned in regards to a criminal matter - I am unsure about civil matters. You sure as hell can't lie on the forms you sign when you cross the border. No, they will be right pissed if you do that.

I am not a lawyer, but I have spent some time in court, dated a lawyer, and taken a few electives on the subject. So, this isn't legal advice but I'm pretty sure this is reasonably accurate.

Sort of off topic, they pick students to hold mock trials, hearings, etc., and do this in a mock courtroom at many universities. If you audit the right course, you can volunteer and you can learn all sorts of neat things. You can also just go sit in the courtroom at your local court. It's open to the public, most of the time. It's a great way to learn more about procedure.

Anyhow, like always, consult a qualified legal professional in your jurisdiction, should you need legal advice.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by ceejayoz on Friday June 16, 2017 @10:12AM (#14569122)
> I am pretty sure that only applies to certain federal agents - while under investigation, and on forms that are official submissions.

If digital currencies really take off (i.e. beyond just a niche group of speculators and early adopters), expect customs forms to include a question on it, then.

You already have to promise not to be a member of Al Qaeda on some immigration forms.

Re:US Senate bill on “any digital exchanger or tumbler of di... by matt_wulfeck on Friday June 16, 2017 @01:58AM (#14566950)
I'm being downvoted as the GP and not sure why. People think that the crypto algorithm keeps their coins safe from the government. The only thing the government needs to do is ask you for them.