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Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by thirdsun on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @04:57AM (#14551458)
What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens?

As a german, of course I don't enjoy paying high taxes, but that changes quickly once you actually get sick. Your health and education should be taken care of regardless of whether you're a janitor or an engineer - or their child, which can't change that status yet.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by jk2323 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @06:18AM (#14551703)
"What's the alternative? Restricting basic needs like education and healthcare to well earning citizens?"

No. Especially health care is solved much better in most of Europe then in the US, where it is approaching 20% of GDP.

1. Higher wages but this is a tricky thing. Germany exports too much, both, goods AND capital https://thewisemansfear.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dland_ku...

2. Lower taxes, especially income taxes.

3. Much lower spending on "social" which is approaching a staggering and unsustainable 1 Trillion Euro in Germany. http://www.preussische-allgemeine.de/nachrichten/artikel/soz...

As the first steps I would do:

1. Invest money into infrastructure which is crumbling

2. Invest in military. If you invest 1.2% of GDP in your military, as Germany does, you don't have a military, you have a museum. Actually, an argument that Trump got right in regards to Germany. (Hey, let the Americans pay)

3. European border defense. Germany has taken millions of illegal immigrants (illegals since none of them would have the right to be an immigrant based on Dublin III regulations). Most of them can't even read. They immigrate into the welfare state. I don't judge this, I would to the same in their position. Immigration should be strictly handled like in Canada or Australia.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by somecallitblues on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @06:57AM (#14551850)
Infrastructure spending is not the best way of propping up the economy. You get more for your buck by giving the money to the people who will immediately spend it. Germany doesn't need to increase the military. It's not running an empire like US. And doesn't need to find that kind of employment for the uneducated lower class. And Germany is what it is because of migrants. Do believe. And Japan is fucked because it's not accepting any.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by jk2323 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:43AM (#14552016)
"Infrastructure spending is not the best way of propping up the economy."

We were not talking about "propping up the economy", we were talking about sustaining it.

"You get more for your buck by giving the money to the people who will immediately spend it."

This is true. But by "importing all of India we don't make Calcutta rich, we make Germany a Calcutta" as somebody said.

"Germany doesn't need to increase the military."

Indeed it does not. Germany is in violation of her NATO contractual obligations. As long as she can "outsource" her defense and make the US defend her, maybe. In fact, Germany has no military anymore, Germany has a military museum.

"It's not running an empire like US."

She is unable to defend herself. Even Switzerland would be a formidable opponent in the current state. How many working tanks are left? 200 Tanks? How many helicopter pilots? http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Bundeswehr-fehlen-Hubschrauber-Pi... There is nothing anymore. And if you are German you will likely be able to understand the Latin saying: "Si vis pacem, para bellum"

"And doesn't need to find that kind of employment for the uneducated lower class."

What other options do you see for the millions of uneducated, low IQ (please refer to Wikipedia) immigrants do you have in mind? Most of them (75%) are supposed to be illiterate. Just social welfare and mosques?

"And Germany is what it is because of migrants."

Because of immigrants with a cultural similar background. Not because of a massive invasion of uneducated people from violent and tribal societies with a very different religion (I am agnostic). Why did the population of Christians in Turkey fall from 23% to below 1% in the last 100 years? Some things don't match and mix well.

"Do believe. And Japan is fucked because it's not accepting any."

Japan is a highly educated, highly industrialized, non violent, non tribal, quite egalitarian society with a tolerant religion. Yes, they are over-aging. But all industrialized countries are over-aging. So far it seems to me that the Japanese are doing the best for a soft landing. By the way, they are extremely restrictive to Muslim immigration. http://allfourestates.com/why-japan-has-no-islamic-terrorism...

You may also want to read this: http://www.martin-van-creveld.com/monsters-ii/

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by int_19h on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @02:55PM (#14555079)
>Why did the population of Christians in Turkey fall from 23% to below 1% in the last 100 years?

Perhaps because 100 years ago it was still the Ottoman Empire, which was a far larger state incorporating many Christian-majority regions?

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by jk2323 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:31AM (#14560158)
No. Because the same thing happened in all Muslims states.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by int_19h on Thursday June 15, 2017 @04:33PM (#14564109)
I don't know about other states - haven't looked at those numbers. But your statistics about Turkey are deliberately misleading by an extremely large margin, because you are in fact comparing the demographics of the Ottoman Empire to the demographics of the modern day Republic of Turkey.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by jk2323 on Friday June 16, 2017 @06:53AM (#14567891)
Well, the Armenians were Christians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by viraptor on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @08:53AM (#14552334)
> Germany has taken millions of illegal immigrants [...] Most of them can't even read.

[citation needed] Unless you meant "can't read German when they arrive"? What group/period​ are you even taking about?

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by jk2323 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @09:10AM (#14552427)
This major [left wing] magazine says 2/3 can hardly read or write (in their own language). http://www.zeit.de/2015/47/integration-fluechtlinge-schule-b...

They also quote, 70% of refugees that started a "trainee" quit.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by richardknop on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @09:34AM (#14552563)
Not German. Many can't read or write at all, they are illiterate. So thinking they will master German in any reasonable timeframe and become employable is risky bet. They will need extensive training.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by daemin on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:18AM (#14551927)
I'd say restricting fully government paid healthcare to citizens is a good step. For non-citizens (full time residents etc) the government would give basic healthcare, but anything elective or above the baseline should be funded by that individual.

In general I would say that most of social safety net benefits should be applied to citizens, and then be scaled down for the other groups of people living there.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by ido on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @08:45AM (#14552288)
Why should I get less than full health care if I pay the same income taxes and health insurance (15% of my wage on it's own)?

If you restrict services to permanent residents than restrict the taxes we pay as well (btw I'm 100% certain I pay more in taxes than I consume in benefits, and Germany didn't even have to pay for my education or early life).

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by daemin on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @09:05AM (#14552398)
I'm not saying restrict services to non-citizens, I'm saying do not have the government pay for those services for non-citizens. If you pay a private company for health insurance then you should be covered by that insurance for the things that the government won't cover.

This is one easy way that the government could cut health related costs.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by ido on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @03:33PM (#14555386)
But I am paying for these services, with 15% of my salary. Why should I have to additionally also pay for private insurance?
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by daemin on Monday June 19, 2017 @12:46PM (#14588310)
No, the Government of the place you are living is taking 15% of money out from your salary to pay for the services that it provides to both citizens and residents. It does not have to divide equally between the two groups.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by TurboHaskal on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @05:13AM (#14551507)
Sure this is nice, but other European countries enjoy equal or better public health services with a fraction of taxes.

You're delusional if you think your 40% base tax is being mainly spent on education and the health system.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by thirdsun on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @05:17AM (#14551518)
Yes, you're right, there's certainly some middle ground - I was rather thinking about the other extreme, like the US.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by taway_1212 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @05:41AM (#14551597)
Taxes aren't that much lower in the US - it's just that what Germany are spending on social programs, the US spends on estabilishing and maintaining world domination (via the military).

What is the bigger problem is that gross dev salaries are maybe half of what they are in the US.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by cko on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @06:19AM (#14551711)
Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue? Tomahawk missiles and F15s aren't cheap, but I thought Medicare + Social Security chew up a majority of our tax dollars.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by freeflight on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:19AM (#14551931)
>Is military spending that large a percentage of US tax revenue?

Those $600+ billion have to come somewhere, don't they? And that doesn't even account for the unaccountable [0].

It doesn't look that bad in % of GDP because of the US's massive GDP, but in pure numbers, the US spends more money on it's military than the next 8 countries on the list combined.

[0] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-audit-army-idUSKCN10U1...

[1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/the-us-spends-more-on...

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by humanrebar on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:27AM (#14551962)
Everyone recognizes that. They don't agree that the problem is the U.S. being war hungry as much as the other countries not being willing to chip in. Here's Obama on the subject:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-oba...

""" “Free riders aggravate me,” he told me. Recently, Obama warned that Great Britain would no longer be able to claim a “special relationship” with the United States if it did not commit to spending at least 2 percent of its GDP on defense. “You have to pay your fair share,” Obama told David Cameron, who subsequently met the 2 percent threshold.

Part of his mission as president, Obama explained, is to spur other countries to take action for themselves, rather than wait for the U.S. to lead. The defense of the liberal international order against jihadist terror, Russian adventurism, and Chinese bullying depends in part, he believes, on the willingness of other nations to share the burden with the U.S. """

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by freeflight on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @08:52AM (#14552330)
That's a narrative that works in the US and only in the US.

What are countries supposed to "chip in" for? The deterrence of a future alien invasion like in Independence Day?

Why should the world chip in for US Ambitions that result in massive destruction, like destabilizing the Middle East, while dealing with most of the brunt of the blowback of such US foreign policy decisions, in the form of refugee waves?

Nobody asked you to be "the world police" no matter how much you keep telling yourself that, "the people there asked for US interventions", is a tale many US Americans keep telling themselves to keep the "We are the good guys" narrative intact, but it has little to nothing to do with reality.

Because reality knows no "good guys" or "bad guys", in reality such terms are purely subjective. As much as I like the US as a country and it's people, there's a huge difference in perception in how US Americans see their country vs how the rest of the world perceives their country's actions.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by taway_1212 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @09:04AM (#14552394)
Ugh, as a Pole in lived in Poland being a province of a Russian empire till 1989 and now am living in Poland which is realistically a province of US/EU empire. I much prefer the latter.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by ThrowawayR2 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @11:05AM (#14553252)
Amazing. Have Europeans forgotten the Iron Curtain and and, more recently, the Crimea already?

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by freeflight on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @04:09PM (#14555701)
I actually grew up on both sides of the Iron Curtain, maybe that's why I struggle playing along with this Star Wars like narrative which insists it's "good guys vs bad guys".

No place is perfect and how "bad" a place ends up, always depending on how much an individual adapts to the given circumstances of said place. This holds true regardless of where you are, a democracy, a dictatorship or anything in-between.

Btw: If you want to talk about Crimea then we first need to start talking about Kiev [0]. Of course, that won't happen because then the whole "Russia as aggressor" narrative wouldn't fit as neatly.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by ThrowawayR2 on Friday June 16, 2017 @10:10AM (#14569102)
There might not be "good guys vs bad guys" but there is certainly a "better vs worse" and it's quite plain to see which side of the Iron Curtain, even after its fall, fared better overall, culturally, intellectually, and economically.

That "better" is worth defending against the encroachment of the "worse".

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by convolvatron on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @01:45PM (#14554490)
how much would we all have to spend to reverse the re-annexation of crimea? clearly its not enough yet. or lets shoot for a resolution of the whole syria/iraq/israel/lebannon/etc thing. how much would that cost?

does that get paid to the US directly or do we all fund our own militaries that work...under US control? or based on our own ideas?

i'm just trying to figure out how this is supposed to work.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by int_19h on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @02:58PM (#14555114)
I don't think anyone is suggesting to chip in to reverse the annexation. The point is to have the military that could adequately protect against similar future encroachments.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by humanrebar on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:18AM (#14551926)
They do, along with other entitlements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

EDIT: Keep in mind that this is just the budget of the national government. Each state has its own budget that barely goes to military spending at all, instead focusing on entitlements, especially healthcare costs.

Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by taway_1212 on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:23AM (#14551944)
Going down to (relative) German level of military spending would free up around $350b (per year). That could go a long way towards improving various social programs. The other issue is that health care in the US seems ridiculously expensive (with doctors making 20x minimum wage and various insurance companies profiteering from a broken system), so in the end this money would buy less health care than in Germany. The same is true with higher education - it's free in most of Europe, but the conditions aren't nearly as lavish as in the US (so again, the money wouldn't improve the situation as much as it could).
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by jpttsn on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @06:13AM (#14551683)
I think the two might be linked. Maintaining world domination via the military effects the demand for engineering talent. It's not always direct; consider what Silicon Valley today would be if there hadn't been a DARPA etc.
Re:The Old Are Eating the Young by rubyfan on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @06:56AM (#14551848)
Don't overlook the inverse incentive created and psychological aspect of this equation. If you are the one working and at the same level as the non-working, there is a cognitive dissonance that cannot be easily overcome.