News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by TomasEkeli on Saturday June 10, 2017 @04:59PM (#14529172)
The autists I know of have no special skills or magical insights. They're really struggling to get through normal days, requiring constant supervision from full-time carers 24 hours. And it has to be the same carers that come at the same time every day. Their lives are really shitty, interspersed with small joys.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by poizan42 on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:19PM (#14529252)
Well, sounds like the only people you know to be autistic are low functional...

Traits that may be beneficial in milder versions can often be detrimental if too expressed. If you are working with software developers then there's a good chance that some of your colleagues falls on the spectrum. It's probably not something they go around telling people about, assuming they are even themselves aware.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by watwut on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:21PM (#14529516)
People like to overstate amount of people on the spectrum in programming - and it likely went down as it gained popularity. High functioning autistic are easy bullying target for "alfa geeks" and can't really cope well in companies where culture fit is important. They also have harder time coping with time pressure, working in open space (noise, disruptions), tight agile cooperation (this is two sided hell), have hard time controlling emotions (go into rage), have hard time deal with changes of plans, unexpected and plenty of other situations currently present.

I guess it is less bad for them to be in programming then in marketing, but normals still have it better.

Also, they are good in some thigs - great with routine, rarely make mistake, rarely inattentive, great memory. Then again, as a rule, they have less good abstract thinking which limits them a lot, goes into rage because programmer on unrelated project used slightly different code style.

If we are talking about people who are normally diagnosable, diagnosis is not exactly shock for people who work with them. You may not be able to guess diagnosis, but you are aware that the person is off.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by lapsock on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:51PM (#14529654)
That's why it's called a spectrum. The people you call "alfa geeks" are probably on the spectrum themselves, but are even higher functioning.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by watwut on Sunday June 11, 2017 @03:23AM (#14531069)
No, they are not. They are highly socially successful and know exactly what gives them praise. They know how to do politics well. They eagerly form cooperating packs. That is opposite of autistic.

People on the spectrum are clumsy systematically - agains bosses, against customers, and time it hurts them.

Alpha geeks act like jerks to get ahed - put down opposition without needing to argue, protect their social status or raiser popularity by being fun. People on the spectrum are not fun. They act like jerks unintentionally - they don't understand what they are doing.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by bad_user on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:11PM (#14529473)
I think claims about "the spectrum" are often overblown. Most software developers do not exhibit any traits linked to autism.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by TheDong on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:19PM (#14529505)
I appreciate this carefully cited informative comment where you state your own biased opinion/observations as fact.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by watwut on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:29PM (#14529556)
Are you claiming that most developers are on the spectrum? That would be quite strong claim.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by enraged_camel on Saturday June 10, 2017 @07:27PM (#14529794)
No, the claim is "most software developers do not exhibit autism symptoms". It was made without supporting evidence.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by sheepmullet on Saturday June 10, 2017 @07:49PM (#14529864)
The default position a logical person without evidence to the contrary should take is most software developers are not on the spectrum.

General population for men is approx 1 in 42 boys are on the autism spectrum (https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/faq)

There are roughly 2 million Americans on the autism spectrum and roughly 3.6 million software developers.

So for the counter claim to be true pretty much every single person with autism in the US must work in Software development.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by enraged_camel on Saturday June 10, 2017 @09:52PM (#14530216)
>>General population for men is approx 1 in 42 boys are on the autism spectrum (https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/faq)

Right, and if you read the link you provided, you will see that they said that number constitutes a ten-fold increase over the past 40 years, which can be at least partially attributed to improved diagnosis and awareness.

So the actual number is probably much higher.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by sheepmullet on Sunday June 11, 2017 @09:12PM (#14534695)
> So the actual number is probably much higher.

Why? Can you please walk me through your reasoning?

Autism is now well known and fairly easily identifiable.

Child care centers, schools, etc all have staff who can identify development issues and will refer to a trained medical professional to diagnose. At least in moderately sized cities.

That was not the case 40 years ago.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by watwut on Sunday June 11, 2017 @04:48AM (#14531265)
It is higher, because women have autism too - through less often and they are better able to masks it.

Nevertheless, majority of those diagnosed are not particularly talented at programming or it just happened that they became obsessed over something else.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by anchpop on Saturday June 10, 2017 @10:24PM (#14530297)
This is probably one of the best comments I've ever seen on HN
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by TheDong on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:46PM (#14529636)
No. I don't have enough information to make any such claim.

I'm merely asserting that the parent comment also likely isn't backed by enough information to make their claim either.

I'll happily be proved wrong by citations in either direction.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by RhysU on Sunday June 11, 2017 @07:22AM (#14531550)
Anyone know a study of for on spectrum programmer vs on spectrum other profession?
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by douche on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:23PM (#14529261)
I sometimes wonder if we sometimes self-label ourselves, in general, as being "on the spectrum" just so we can justify getting pissy when uninteresting people interrupt and harass us while we are trying to concentrate on interesting problems.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by briholt on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:52PM (#14529388)
I think this is the DSM's criteria for high functioning autism.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by poizan42 on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:56PM (#14529407)
Having difficulty getting back on track after an interruption is part of ADHD (well, more difficulty than the average person, interruptions disrupts everybody's concentration to some degree). There is a high level of comorbidity between Autism Spectrum Disorders and ADHD-PI (formerly known as ADD).
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by watwut on Sunday June 11, 2017 @03:38AM (#14531106)
Ok, but some people are jerks or without being autistic. No one likes being interrupted, not just autistic. They just make it while another level.

If you act angrily after being interrupted, then people will interrupt you less. People with high social skills do that intentionally for exactly that reason. The difference is in inability to control the bad reaction. Merely being rude and self centered is not enough (autistic come across like self centered, but that is oftentimes unfair).

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by wbl on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:38PM (#14529323)
I had an IEP because of autism and work in the industry.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by blunte on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:24PM (#14529537)
And quite possibly they have some unrecognized or under(non)represented great skills.

Consider how we as humans treat other non-human creatures. Do we consider the intelligence of a chicken, for example? It's inconvenient to do so, as it would suddenly thrust upon us ethical considerations to how we treat them. We (some) would rather just factory farm and eat them.

Perhaps because of our own limitations (culling less likely useful streams of thought) we tend to disregard things we don't understand. That does not mean they are lacking in value. It just means we have not made much effort to ascertain their capabilities.

Consider this perspective. If you were a stock investor, how would you value a modern Beethoven? You might try to determine the potential value of sales of his creations, but you would likely disregard the non-financial value of his music. Does that mean his music was not worth much?

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by vitaminbandit on Saturday June 10, 2017 @07:37PM (#14529829)
Don't romanticize what is a huge disability for a great many people. And you're not doing anyone any favors by mentioning the intelligence of chickens to make what you think is a point.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by blunte on Sunday June 11, 2017 @01:17PM (#14532773)
I'm not romanticizing. I'm trying to illustrate that just because the greater "we" cannot ascertain the value of some person (or creature) does not mean the thing is of no value.

Humans have a tendency to disregard that which they do not understand.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by kmonad on Saturday June 10, 2017 @11:02PM (#14530386)
Yes! It is a disability, not a quirk.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by grandalf on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:17PM (#14529494)
> The autists I know of have no special skills or magical insights

This is not necessarily a counter-argument since it is limited to the sample size of those you know.

The argument supposes that there would be enough benefit to the upside traits of autism disorders to keep the genes in the gene pool.

Also, it's not clear how the genes work or how the spectrum of autism-related conditions might have offered beneficial side-effects to group survival.

Interestingly, I think it follows that only in animals with "culture" would we find such selection. I wonder if it occurs in dolphins or primates, etc.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by kmonad on Saturday June 10, 2017 @11:01PM (#14530383)
I'm glad you are saying this. Today, especially on forums like here and perhaps reddit, autism is almost a badge as it is used frequently simultaneously with high intelligence. Yet, there really is not very clear evidence for this (there is some evidence that genetic patterns between highly intelligent and autistic individuals tend to overlap). I worry about this because it tends to render being autistic 'as not so bad', and downplay that autism is a disability.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by danellis on Saturday June 10, 2017 @05:24PM (#14529272)
What do they need supervision of? Perhaps they're things they wouldn't have been expected to do on their own a few thousand years ago anyway. Perhaps they would have had an easier time in an early, small human community.
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by watwut on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:33PM (#14529579)
Low functioning autism may mean "bangs head on the table even as blood goes out because routine got interrupted - favourite ipod run out of batteries". Or "goes into epic rage because the cup is not on exact same place as usually - it is 15cm on the left in the same drawer. "

It is serious condition. Most would simply die young.

Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by qb45 on Sunday June 11, 2017 @04:17AM (#14531194)
I wonder if it could be a pathologically overblown form of frustration with people not bothering to streamline this "life" thing and make uninteresting, repetitive tasks unobtrusive. I can relate to that :)
Re:What role did autism play in human evolution? by sajid on Saturday June 10, 2017 @06:09PM (#14529465)
I think the argument is that although autism itself might be detrimental, the broad autism phenotype may have proved beneficial in human history.