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Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by kybernetikos on Thursday June 08, 2017 @03:57AM (#14512646)
Tabula Peutingeriana is a road map of Europe which is a copy of a Roman original thought to have been based on a map prepared by Agrippa.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/TabulaPe...

It also has a 'subway' feel, given that not much attention has been paid to getting the shapes correct.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by cannam on Thursday June 08, 2017 @04:17AM (#14512720)
Any idea what the small circular lake with the island in the middle, at bottom right might be? That's an interestingly precise shape.

(It's surrounded by labels for desert, but I can't make out the labels on the island itself.)

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by freshbob on Thursday June 08, 2017 @09:51AM (#14514152)
If you look at the map, you can see Samosata up north on the Euphrates, Ressaina between Euphrates and Tigris and Zeugma to the west. Tharrana is next to the circular lake with the island.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samosata is the modern city of Samsat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhesaina is Ressaina (see http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma,_Commagene Zeugma is near modern-day Gaziantep

The location of historic Tharrana is apparently not finally known. Harran, Turkey is one possibility mentioned at http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/10_mesopotamia/me....

Since all reference points are in Turkey or Syria, best guess is that the cirular lake with the island is Al Jaboul Lake, 36.024360"N, 37.610087"E. It used to be a tributary to the Euphrates but no source I could find states exactly when that changed.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by nkoren on Thursday June 08, 2017 @01:23PM (#14515611)
Good guess!

Here's an alternate proposal: Raqqah. Check it out on the map:

https://goo.gl/maps/ubW2hp1Wh6N2

It obviously isn't in a lake, but it looks like the the tributary coming down from Harran goes both west and east of Raqqah, making it an island of sorts. The shape made by the this "island" is reasonably close to circular. Finally, per the map, it's southeast of Zuegma and south of Harran.

Obviously hypothesising wildly, but this map is just way too much fun.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by philippnagel on Thursday June 08, 2017 @04:46AM (#14512837)
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by afleck on Thursday June 08, 2017 @06:55AM (#14513244)
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by edward_rolf on Thursday June 08, 2017 @06:32AM (#14513169)
That map is just awsome in so many ways. Where is Denmark and Sweden though? Romans just didn't think there was anything up there? Nothing? Way too cold up there for people to live?
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by halfdan on Thursday June 08, 2017 @06:51AM (#14513231)
They didn't really get past the Germanic tribes and stopped expansion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

Presumably also because there wasn't much there at the time that would've allowed them to collect taxes.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by bergoid on Thursday June 08, 2017 @07:05AM (#14513277)
> They didn't really get past the Germanic tribes and stopped expansion They were unable to find a new natural border that was as easily defendable as the Rhine-Danube combination.

> Presumably also because there wasn't much there at the time that would've allowed them to collect taxes. The Romans liked to portray Germania as poor and inhospitable. Part of the reason for that could be cognitive dissonance for never having conquered it.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by toyg on Thursday June 08, 2017 @07:14AM (#14513306)
Or because it really was poor and inhospitable. Until the middle ages, when new agricultural tools were invented, Germanic territories projected very little power, and relied on periodic aggression to survive in typical nomadic way. This changed when they could actually grow stuff in more reliable ways, producing surpluses to trade and establishing stable kingdoms.
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by usrusr on Thursday June 08, 2017 @11:01AM (#14514633)
In other words: Germanic tribes were using the defensive strategy of not preparing wheat fields for invaders to harvest during campaigning season. Kind of equivalent to cyberdefense by pen and paper.

Half of Cesar's Gallic War seems to be more than half about grain logistics (huge efforts to start the campaigns jus a few weeks earlier) and ripeness of the local crops. And that is even while he was likely trying to downplay all the robbery.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by toyg on Thursday June 08, 2017 @12:12PM (#14515161)
Romans didn't just pillage, they also planted stuff like chestnut trees as they moved up and down Europe, so that they could use them in following years. Regardless, I find it difficult to believe that already-struggling tribes would further starve themselves just in case this or that opponent tried to invade. It's much more likely that they simply weren't able to grow much more in what was a hard soil, without the stronger plows that would be used later on to break such soil more effectively; especially when a lot of these people were still basically nomadic.

Production beyond the Rhine simply was not great even in times of peace, before the middle ages. Rome ended up controlling most of the German territory through client states anyway, even sending troops for punitive raids and propping up this or that friendly ruler, so they knew the economic potential of those lands pretty well; they just renounced full invasion because it was not worth the risk. At a time when they were already hitting what we could call scaling limits in their ability to mobilise troops over long distances, there was little appetite for going further North, where clearly there were no riches waiting for them. A similar assessment was done for Scotland, and rightly so.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by usrusr on Thursday June 08, 2017 @05:17PM (#14517255)
> Regardless, I find it difficult to believe that already-struggling tribes would further starve themselves just in case this or that opponent tried to invade.

Allow me to apologize for my lack of precision, I never intend to imply that they deliberately avoided "invader-friendly" crops. Wheat just had not spread that far, due to climate (not yet sufficiently adapted by breeding?) and/or cultural reasons: nomadism (well, more effect than cause I guess) and the fact that large scale forest clearances are the type of project that can only happen in presence of big organizations that are stable enough to enable such long term investments. Many German settlements still carry the name of the medieval nobleman who commissioned the original clearance (names ending in -rode, -roda, -reuth and probably some more regional variations), which implies that before the clearance, there was only wilderness.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by Tyr42 on Thursday June 08, 2017 @02:15PM (#14515971)
Not to mention the fact that by the third century, if a general controlled enough troops, they would (and did) overthrow the Emperor, so the Emperor tended to run around with one large army putting out fires, which was inefficient.
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by usrusr on Thursday June 08, 2017 @05:48PM (#14517434)
And many of those soldiers where mercenaries from the outside, who, by serving the empire, where put in the position to loot the empire's superior agriculture.

This went on for many generations, it's not a "last days before the ostrogoths" exception. Competing "emperor startups" in an empire representing pretty much the entire known civilized world, surrounded by mostly harmless outlaw wilderness. It must have felt as natural and "could the world even be not like this?" to the people populating that world as nation states, competing militarily, economically and in the Olympics seem natural to us.

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by HarryHirsch on Thursday June 08, 2017 @10:18AM (#14514318)
Well, the reason that Germania (and Britain north of Hadrian's Wall, the available sources are better for Britain) was never conquered was that they were so inhospitable. When your army has to support itself off plunder there needs to be plunder to begin with. It just couldn't be done in such thinly populated areas.
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by CurtMonash on Sunday June 11, 2017 @02:39AM (#14530982)
Roman difficulties advancing into the Germanic areas are covered in https://www.volksliederarchiv.de/als-die-roemer-frech-geword...

An abbreviated version may be found in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS5Asjvhx6I :)

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by treerock on Thursday June 08, 2017 @07:07AM (#14513283)
Thule is marked on the map away past Ireland, and is apparently identified as Norway nowadays.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by arethuza on Thursday June 08, 2017 @11:23AM (#14514816)
I love the Wall there on Britannia...

"There is no land beyond us and even the sea is no safe refuge when we are threatened by the Roman fleet....We are the last people on earth, and the last to be free: our very remoteness in a land known only to rumour has protected us up till this day...."

Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by pouetpouet on Thursday June 08, 2017 @07:41AM (#14513395)
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by singularity2001 on Thursday June 08, 2017 @04:00AM (#14512655)
"the Greenbelt" amplifying the fact that civilization used to spread more in east-west direction then North-South
Re:A subway-style diagram of the major Roman roads, based on... by rurban on Saturday June 10, 2017 @10:30AM (#14527454)
I find it interesting they put Albania into Persia, not between Dalmatia and Macedonia/Lepirum Novum.