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Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by learc83 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @08:59PM (#14484627)
This article from 538 argues that almost 3/4 of the rise in tuition is accounted for by a drop in state support.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by wmeredith on Sunday June 04, 2017 @09:34PM (#14484759)
I came here to say this. My wife left the private sector four years ago to work in higher ed. This was a huge epiphany to both of us after she had been there a while and we could see the big picture from the inside. Sure there are a couple other factors at play, but it's small potatoes, comparatively. If you look at the big state schools and the support they receive from the community, they've systematically had their legs cut out from under them over the last couple decades. It's horrifying. And the students are paying for it. As are the teachers.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by moomin on Monday June 05, 2017 @11:00AM (#14488065)
Serious point: let's say that, to you personally, investing in the stock market and going to college are a wash. They're not a wash for the state. The state gets more taxes from your higher-paying job. The chances are you're also helping to support some lower-paying jobs as part of your industry. So it's not unreasonable to expect the state to contribute to actually making this happen.

The benefits are actually much larger than I've just described. There's a snowball effect as the industries of the state move up the ladder. America is currently benefiting from past state investment in education. (There's intangible benefits too, but for these purposes let's just talk about the benefits the state accrues.)

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by ThrustVectoring on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:40PM (#14489527)
>The state gets more taxes from your higher-paying job.

That's if you accept the higher-education-as-training model. Under the higher-education-as-signaling model, the primary effect of education is to choose how to allocate a fixed set of high paying jobs. If there's 100 slots for new lawyers this year, then the difference between sending 150 and 151 students through law school is an additional unemployed lawyer.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by moomin on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @11:01AM (#14497736)
There's a case to be made for that in particular professions, and there's no way the state should be funding the dodgy law colleges that have sprouted all over America. But then, if you subscribe to that model you should also believe that you should be able to disavow education loans in the event of bankruptcy.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by kesselvon on Monday June 05, 2017 @11:49AM (#14488452)
The federal government is having it both ways right now: it earns interest on the money it loaned to you to get a higher education, and it also generates higher revenues via your increased lifetime earnings. This is a bummer because its not like your state taxes went down along with a decrease in state funding for your in-state universities.

Basically state governments off-loaded the burden of funding on the students while reaping the benefits of said investments.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by kchoudhu on Sunday June 04, 2017 @10:50PM (#14484982)
Doesn't explain what's happening in private higher education though.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by rebuilder on Sunday June 04, 2017 @11:27PM (#14485084)
If public higher ed. has its capacity and/or quality cut, wouldn't that increase the demand for private education?
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by strommen on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:01AM (#14485344)
The public universities don't cut capacity or quality - they raise costs. And the private colleges follow suit because they can.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by Retric on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:16PM (#14489328)
Sure it does, if stake school is X, then private schools need to cost more than X to seem exclusive.

Further, financial aid makes nameplate number less meaningful. If someone has rich parents or wins a full ride then schools want to milk that for as much as possible. Otherwise they can always add discounts down to whatever someone can pay.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by flubert on Monday June 05, 2017 @11:35AM (#14488321)
Is there a name for the "law" that you can always find "credible" information supporting both sides of any issue?

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-...

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by thesagan on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @08:06PM (#14502645)
"Fair and balanced?"
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by fivestar on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:33AM (#14487452)
Um, not sure what you are talking about wrt community support? The community, and the state was supporting the university quite liberally.

My observations from attending and then later working at a large southern public university is that a bunch of things happened:

1) The financiers got in bed with the financial aid office, figuratively and possibly literally.

2) The campus went on an inexplicable building boom the likes of which no one had ever seen before. The state funded those projects, but they were clearly handouts to construction companies and pork spending. Sickening, really.

3) The quality of the average student plummeted. I blame the financiers for this, too--asses in seats is a thing.

So while it may be generally good that more people had access to higher education, at the same time the quality dropped, and I seriously doubt the outcomes for many of those people actually improved over attending community college or perhaps no college. Their debt loads had to be tremendous, after all.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by pnutjam on Monday June 05, 2017 @12:08PM (#14488675)
There are huge discrepancies in student preparedness in different areas. It's possible your right, the South has long viewed education with suspicion and this has gotten worse, probably insuring students today are less ready for college.

It's also possible that states where education was valued have pulled back funding. There is actual hard data to indicate this is the case, but I'm also trying to avoid dismissing your claims out of hand.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by notananthem on Monday June 05, 2017 @12:00PM (#14488571)
I did undergrad at a state school (University of Illinois at Chicago) and later worked there as a researcher and our pension was bankrupt and the state was just trying to murder what was left of benefits and reasons to want to work there. Hilariously enough colleagues at private schools (SAIC, etc) in design in the area are now all bailing to work at UIC because their benefits and pay are far worse. I am in an evening MBA program at UW Seattle now, Foster School of Business, and its half covered by my employer. Everyone's trying to gut funding but improve education..
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by prostoalex on Monday June 05, 2017 @02:09AM (#14485557)
For a pure apples-to-apples price comparison it's reasonable to use an out-of-state tuition that's free of state support, grants or scholarships, as that reflects the true price sticker.

The rise in college tuition is the most baffling, as this industry refuses the amortize costs. The buildings have been built, the books have been written, the intro courses have been handed down to graduate students, the handouts are sometimes the same handouts that were used a decade ago.

Yet the costs keep on rising.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by ska on Monday June 05, 2017 @10:21AM (#14487772)
What is baffling about it? This has turned into a very effective method of wealth transfer. I think some combination of the rise in administrative overheads and the involvement of private finance with government protection explain almost all of it.

Asking young humans with incomplete information to make a decision with long term financial impacts is a good gig, especially when "all their friends" are doing it.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by maxerickson on Monday June 05, 2017 @11:33AM (#14488310)
The price doesn't necessarily represent the cost.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by fivestar on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:35AM (#14487458)
There has to be a top--there is no demand at some price point, even with loans.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by johnnyb9 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @09:28PM (#14484742)
https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/staff...

"We find a pass-through effect on tuition of changes in subsidized loan maximums of about 60 cents on the dollar, and smaller but positive effects for unsubsidized federal loans."

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by gozur88 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @09:55PM (#14484836)
That's only public universities, though. How does that explain the corresponding increases at private schools?
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by learc83 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @10:57PM (#14484999)
First you have to factor in the fact that public schools are a competing good, so when public tuition rises private tuition will as well.

Then you have to realize that tuition increases at private schools are misleading. You have to look at what people are actually paying not what the sticker prices.

At Harvard, for instance, 70% of students receive financial aid, so they are paying $12k a year on average (not the $60k sticker price). That's tuition, fees, and room and board. Harvard has generous financial aid, but it's not unusual among elite schools. Most private schools worth going to are going to have very good financial aid packages.

And even at lower tier private schools most people aren't paying sticker price unless you're talking about for profit institutions.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by gozur88 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @11:04PM (#14485020)
But private schools have to compete with each other. If this was really about increased demand from students who would have otherwise gone to public schools, what we'd see is an increase in the number of private schools, not an increase in tuition.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by learc83 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @11:30PM (#14485094)
Assuming the number of private schools that students want to go is in no way supply limited, which is an incorrect assumption.

How long does it take to build and staff a private school? How long to get it into US News top 500?

Even something like increasing the number of students admitted to existing private schools is tricky because they are tracked on their admission percentage.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by stale2002 on Monday June 05, 2017 @12:10AM (#14485210)
You don't have to create a new college.

All that has to happen is for EXISTING colleges to realize that they can make a ton more money by expanding in size.

Obviously, this doesn't happen overnight. You have to hire new employees, buy more land, and build more buildings.

But I'd argue that this process would happen a lot, lot quicker than "create new college". Colleges are already expanding all the time.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by matchbok on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:07AM (#14485361)
You don't think they know that? I'm sure they do. But the other option is to stay the same size, but charge much more. Either way, more money. Only one solution demands building more classrooms and housing.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by stale2002 on Monday June 05, 2017 @12:02PM (#14488599)
Competition would prove otherwise.

If a single college doubles in size, the effect on total college supply is minimal.

You double the amount of quantity sold, for You, while only slightly decreasing price, because Total college supply has only barely increased.

It is simple supply and demand in a competitive market.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by learc83 on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:27PM (#14489426)
It's not that simple. A huge part of what makes a particular college attractive is selectivity. Acceptance rates are tracked and reported.

Harvard and Yale are ranked so highly that they could get away with it. But they won't do it for other reasons. Mainly that they don't need the money coming in from tuition. If you take a private school a bit further down the list though, their rankings would tank if they accepted twice the students.

Also there are other limiting factors. Many colleges don't have the physical space to just double in size. Their isn't land for sale within walking distance of their current campuses. Adding satellite campuses is one way around that, but that adds logistical problems that will reduce desirability. In addition to satellite campuses not always inheriting the reputation of the main campus.

Additionally you can't simply double the student to faculty ratio b/c that would tank rankings, and hiring double the faculty takes time.

You also don't know which departments you need to scale beforehand. If you decide to double your enrollment in the next 5 years, which majors will the new students choose? It's unlikely the ratios would stay the same. Good programs don't always scale well either. If a department worked hard over the last 20 years to build a good reputation, they can't just hire 20 new faculty members and teach twice the number of students without impacting quality.

Schools do expand all the time, but it is a very slow process that by its nature can't keep up with a constant growth in demand.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by jononor on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:42AM (#14486888)
The more you charge the more valuable you are seen to be.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by prostoalex on Monday June 05, 2017 @02:16AM (#14485586)
You are right, there's no increased demand. Advertised sticker price and actual price of a private education can be substantially different https://www.wsj.com/articles/private-colleges-see-record-dis...

For decades the private sector has been feeding off the gravitas created by Stanford, Harvard, Yale and other superb private institutions. Maybe time has helped, maybe the Internet made comparisons easier, but it's pretty clear that private schools can be separated into three tiers, with tier one (Stanford, Yale) still being top notch, tier two being a questionable proposition for most people, and tier three (U of Phoenix, Trump U) being borderline fraud.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by learc83 on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:00PM (#14493079)
Trump U literally was fraud. He paid out millions in settlements.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by ethbro on Sunday June 04, 2017 @10:54PM (#14484991)
I'd assume the two are strongly correlated. If state schools raise their prices, then private schools can stay at the same multiple above them and also raise their prices.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by replicatorblog on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:26PM (#14492259)
That line of argument would be more persuasive if it explained why tuition has increased at private colleges? Suffolk University is an unimpressive college in Boston that is at risk of losing its accredidation, yet charges $37K/year for tuition. Harvard, arguably the best college brand in the world, costs $43K. It seems like there should be a bigger delta between the two, right? Why not? Might it have something to do with the amount of loans students are allowed to take out with government underwriting? Perhaps.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by learc83 on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:58PM (#14493067)
Or might it have something to do with the fact that Harvard has a massive multi-billion dollar endowment. Tuition is a tiny fraction of their income.

70% of Harvard students receive financial aid from the institution, and they pay an average of $12k a year total. Harvard clearly isn't charging a market rate for tuition.

Also government backed loans aren't nearly enough to cover tuition plus housing at these schools, so if your argument is that the prices are similar because they are both near the max loan amount, they aren't.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by replicatorblog on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @06:46AM (#14496217)
Is there any literature that explains why the costs continue to rise on a yearly basis? If one buys into the disinvestment hypothesis it seems like the public university traditions should have plateaued at some point once the <$10K difference in state funding and private tuition normalized. Especially considering we've seen dramatic cost reductions in IT and a profusion of programs like MITx, Khan Academy, and others that should allow colleges to reduce costs.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by conanbatt on Monday June 05, 2017 @01:46AM (#14485476)
Interesting!

Does this mean that education budgets for the states has had cuts in the last 16 years? Where is that state money saved going?

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by prostoalex on Monday June 05, 2017 @02:20AM (#14485599)
Pension plans of retired college professors and staff typically include some wildly optimistic investment expectations, and states are on the hook for compensatory payments when those expectations [surprisingly] do not materialize.

This is not limited to education pension funds, public sector or prison guard pension funds typically negotiate the same deal, very frequently with people they themselves have helped get elected, so you know those negotiations are extremely tough.

Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by fastaguy88 on Monday June 05, 2017 @12:45PM (#14489055)
In almost all states, the money has gone to Medicaid. In Virginia (which I know well), the money also went to build a bunch of prisons in the 80's and 90's. But, if you look at the distribution of state budgets over the past 40 years, health care expenses and prisons have been the growth areas.
Re:On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs ... by jrs95 on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:32AM (#14486827)
But would this have been possible without the federal money being available? I don't think the two are necessarily separate.