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Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by hotsauceror on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:50AM (#14394540)
Cargo Cult is exactly right. Our organization is selling us this right now. "We're creating a more collaborative atmosphere! Facebook does it, this must be what IT people want." (Any discussion of paying IT staff like FB, though, is "well, we're not an IT company, and besides we're mission driven!") Because they don't think we're mature enough to accept that they want to squeeze more bodies unto a smaller space, for purely financial reasons.

Leadership got called out at a recent company meeting by someone who commented that noise-cancelling headphone were critical. One of the C-suite evangelists was like "haha, yeah you're right next to my office aren't you." In other words, "I'm so oblivious, I think it's amusing that my loud conversations are negatively impacting my subordinates' ability to concentrate in this 'collaborative' environment'".

My team does not need a collaborative atmosphere. We're not marketers. We're quiet, introverted, methodical folks who need a quiet atmosphere where they can concentrate on writing ops code that won't bring down a production server in the middle of the day. We don't want to have to listen to overheard gossip, ostensibly private phone calls, etc. while we're trying to figure triage a complex issue. But more than anything, it's offensive that they won't just come out and admit that this is being done for financial reasons. We're all adults in a capitalist economy; we know the score.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by Declanomous on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:57AM (#14394595)
I technically work in marketing, and even I don't think that open-offices are better. A private office is way more productive for the 75% of the time we aren't collaborating. It is a lot easier to write and design things when it is quiet. The idea that creative extroverted people work better the more riotous an environment is is absolute nonsense.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by hotsauceror on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:58PM (#14395637)
No offense intended, of course. In my mental picture of a Marketing department, there's lots of creative back and forth and sort of, "brainstorming all the time" which is probably about as accurate as any stereotype. Everyone needs a time and a place to go heads-down.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by Declanomous on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:08PM (#14395701)
None taken. It probably depends on the marketing department. There is a lot of brainstorming and back-and-forth, but I personally need my own space to brainstorm.

A lot of my conversations go like this:

Person A: Hey, have you decided what you want to do with [x] thing?

Person B: No, I was thinking [y], but I got stuck with [z].

Person A: That makes sense, what happens if we do [w]?

Person B: That's a good idea, but [v] might be a problem. I'll think about it and get back to you.

Person B sits down and works for a few more hours

If you have individual offices, that conversation might take ten minutes, and it only occupies 20 man-minutes. If you have an open-office with your entire marketing department, the conversation will probably take a full-man hour between all the people who get distracted and the other people who need to chime in.

Honestly, I think easy collaboration works better for programming/IT than it does for sales/marketing/communication, because the problems in IT are more concrete. So I think you are more likely to be able to chime in with a useful comment when the problem is "I'm getting this weird error" than when the problem is "does this have the tone we are looking for?"

In both cases, I think open offices are terrible. 2-3 people per office seems about right to me.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by Florin_Andrei on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:11PM (#14395724)
> The idea that creative extroverted people work better the more riotous an environment is is absolute nonsense.

The only place where that worked well was the old-timey trading floor, as seen in Gary Cooper-era movies.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by Declanomous on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:33PM (#14395872)
My dad worked on the floor of the Chicago Option Exchange for years. Even the craziest open-outcry pits were way more organized than any movie has made them seem.

I'm sure trading is way more productive now that it's done from a desk in an office, in the same way that auctions done online are probably more productive than auctions conducted in-person.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by kumar785 on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:06PM (#14394683)
I don't think it is a cargo cult. My guess is that the focus is to make these engineers replaceable. And "quiet, introverted, methodical folks" are difficult to replace. Dumbed down open office workers and brogrammers are easily replaceable with another recent graduate some place cheaper.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by ashark on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:44PM (#14395019)
Definitely part of it. Businesses are afraid developers will come to regard themselves, and to be regarded, as real professionals, like doctors, lawyers, some categories of engineer (god forbid they stop cowering around the MBAs or start questioning the ethics of... well, anything, really!)

Systemically keeping their tastes and station "lower" than that is probably part of what's going on, especially with the bigger companies. Developer pay may (sometimes) approach or match upper-middle, professional-class level, but (self-)respect for developers can't be permitted to reach those heights. Better their conditions are kept closer to, say, mid-20th-century secretary pools.

[dead]
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by ashark on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:42PM (#14395507)
What's your point? Obviously developer pay is enviable. That's the problem (for management). High-status pay risks translating into actual high-status, with the influence and autonomy that implies. Hence the very low-status worker bee seating arrangements. I mean, thank god so many of these developers lean Objectivist or otherwise ultra-individualist or simply haven't given the politics of labor much thought, or they might organize and then businesses would have to do something to fight that, too. How inconvenient that would be for them.

I'm not crying, just observing. There's a risk of a new honest-to-god high-status profession emerging, and desire to avoid that is probably behind some of the "culture" filtering down from the big tech companies. It's barely-upper-middle-class-culturally-if-you-squint-a-little management not wanting to have subordinates who match or outrank them, socially. The smaller companies aren't in on it—they're just cargo-culting, of course. Investors and potential larger, acquiring companies sure do seem to expect those conditions when they get their tours, though, so there's that.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by j2bax on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:42PM (#14395938)
All I'm saying is I think you are making it a little more personal/deep than it might be. The seating arrangement in many/most instances may in fact just be a logistics issue of fitting a large number of people into a economical amount of space. Standard corporate structure/org charts determine who gets the offices. If one person serves as the buffer between management above them and the 10-20 developers below them, why shouldn't they? It would seem they would need a private space more often for meetings and such. Hopefully a lot of them sat out on the floor and did their time as well.

As I see it, with great risk comes great reward. Managers are held responsible for the the great successes or great failures of their team(s). I wouldn't work for a manager that I don't respect and feel deserves a position of management above me. If you do, thats your bad.

If you are concerned (or care) that your perceived status isn't living up to your expectations for the work you do and the value you provide, you could always try doing something else that people perceive as more respectable and worthy of awe and special treatment.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by aosfbasoufboas on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:21PM (#14396206)
Well, the reason that is seen as an economical amount of space is because they can hire people that accept that tradeoff. If people didn't accept it, then businesses would provide office space.

Business will offer the least that people will accept, it's up to you to decide if you will accept it. Working with someone is a voluntary negotiation - that's a two way street. Business decisions about floor space are not sacrosanct, and enough discontent from employees would change norms as it would for anything not vital to company survival.

While I give startups some leeway, for large established companies like Apple or Facebook, already rich shareholders are loling all the way to the bank at workers' expense. I'll cry a river if additional accommodations result in falling a place or two on the most profitable companies in the world chart. According to YCharts, FB's quarterly profit margin was an astounding 38% (down slightly from the previous quarter): https://ycharts.com/companies/FB/profit_margin

To reap riches that insane, I consider it an obligation for the leadership of that company to accommodate their workers quite generously. You might argue it's already generous, but compare that to their executive class. The level of inequality is astounding, and this is amongst rich people.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by hiram112 on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:59PM (#14395641)
What's that supposed to mean?

RNs and Nurse Practioners make at least as much as the typical software engineers in SV. The $175-$250K+ that some of the senior guys at Google and FB make is not typical. Most of us in the rest of the country are probably making about $100K, and that's when we start becoming over-priced.

And teachers? I have respect for them, but I don't consider what they do necessarily difficult, especially in lower grades.

What people are complaining about is software engineering - which is supposedly in such high demand we need hundreds of thousands of foreigners to take up the lack of supply - being treated like blue collar labor, essentially another guy on the assembly line to be exchanged for another body if needed.

In contrast, lawyers, doctors, business execs, and most non-software engineers are treated as professionals. They have offices, expense accounts, professional dress codes, ability to attend conferences. Most professionals, after putting in their years, begin to partake in the company's profits, with access to the financials, hiring, and product strategy, and overall direction of the business.

Meanwhile, the typical developer, even at a company where software is the product, are never privy to the business. Instead, their access is limited strictly to a list of monkey-tasks or user stories on Jira. The MBAs, product managers, and execs keep all the interesting info to themselves. They're more likely to ask you for help resetting their password than they are in developing a sales pitch or project proposal.

Do you think a lawyer going to a job interview at some big firm gets to go through 2 days of quizzing over vague topics from 2nd year of law school? Instead, it is a professional discussion with peers about previous work.

Doctors, lawyers, and business people have a smooth, linear salary progression into their late 50s. A software engineer starts out well, but rapidly hits the glass ceiling at about 40. After that, you're an over-paid liability.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by j2bax on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:49PM (#14395989)
>And teachers? I have respect for them, but I don't consider what they do necessarily difficult, especially in lower grades.

There's a difference between a "teacher" and a great teacher. Even in the lower levels I think it's hard to know how much of an effect incentivizing great teachers to stick around could have on the world and economy. Grade school years are highly influential years of people's lives and for some, school is the only chance they have to see something different and break the mold of which they've been brought into.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by s73ver on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:23PM (#14395804)
"And teachers? I have respect for them, but I don't consider what they do necessarily difficult, especially in lower grades."

Given the impact teachers have, and knowing what a little shit I was as a kid, I cannot agree with that statement.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by hinkley on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:23PM (#14397362)
Not GP, but I'm related to an RN, so I know a little bit about the sorts of things that nurses say about doctors when they're not around.

Basically as bad as our power dynamic is, the esteem doctors hold for themselves and the disregard they have for RNs as people who couldn't finish their medical training is well known if not widely broadcast.

When you walk around acting like your organization could function without any of the people who do all of the work, there are gonna be problems. But at least for us those problems mostly don't include people dying.

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by coffeeski on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:07PM (#14396949)
My wife is a teacher, 1 single day in her job and I'd probably be ok being homeless.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by acdha on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:33PM (#14395444)
Who does that attitude benefit? (Hint: not anyone who has to work for a living)
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by s73ver on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:22PM (#14395795)
So tell me, what's the exact dollar amount one can make before they're forbidden from talking about the downsides of their job?
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by justforFranz on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:11PM (#14394733)
Get yer cargo cult out of my bandwagon.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by MrTortoise on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:44PM (#14395521)
Get her bandwagon out of my bikeshed
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by pandaman on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:22PM (#14398372)
I agree. It seems that Bloomberg "invented" it (there used to be open space offices before, of course, but I don't think they were this style of "all departments and even executives are in the same room without any divisions") and it appears to be content with high turnover.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by bsg75 on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:11PM (#14394734)
Its both.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by umanwizard on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:38PM (#14394985)
I work for FB and I hate the open office.

(This has nothing to do with FB -- I've hated it everywhere I've worked.)

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by cookiecaper on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:54PM (#14395114)
>We're all adults in a capitalist economy; we know the score.

This is mostly false, and to the extent that it is true, it turns out that people much prefer to have the ability to retreat into ambiguity around management's thought process and incentives when it suits them, rather than for the executives to be explicit about it.

The most infamous example of an executive revealing something everyone already knew to be true is Gerald Ratner [0]. After jokingly stating that his company was able to sell things for such low prices because it was "total crap", they plummeted to the brink of collapse. The company was saved only after firing Ratner and changing its name.

Companies where ill-advised executive candor has turned fortunes downward are now said to be experiencing the "Ratner Effect".

Executives are, first and foremost, performers. Dropping the illusion is offensive to the audience. We like pretending.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner

Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by erobbins on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:55PM (#14396029)
I work at FB. A LOT of us hate the open plan.
Re:CEOs Want Their Offices Back by varelse on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:06PM (#14405783)
So can I assume that the perks, the projects, and the pay outweigh the annoyance of the floor plan?