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Re:Google I/O 2017 by quotemstr on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @02:55PM (#14361646)
I've been wondering for a long time whether machine learning will break the long-time tech industry lifecycle we've all come to regard as some kind of immutable law of nature.

Traditionally, 1) we start with big, established companies in tech. 2) A few people, dissatisfied with the trammels that big companies place on their employees, leave, found a new company, and then, 3) through superior grit, gumption, execution, flexibility, and speed, steal market share from the big companies. As the new company grows, 4) it accumulates organizational scar tissue and is slowly infiltrated by incompetent careerists, and finally, 5) becomes the very company that the founders set out to create.

We've been going through this cycle since the late 1950s, when the "traitorous eight" left Shockley Semiconductor Laboratory to found "Fairchild Semiconductor".

Machine learning might stop this cycle by breaking step #3. Big companies have access to huge data sets that no group of human developers, no matter how talented, can match. Even slow, hidebound, and barely-competent use of these data sets can squash upstart smaller companies.

It'll be like a planet, full of water and life, with a core that cools to the point where it can no longer sustain plate tectonics. Without constant replenishment, the crust seizes up, the oceans boil off, and the life dies. The tech industry will become Mars.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by roymurdock on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @04:26PM (#14362473)
Generally agree with OP that ML is one of the last viable frontiers for the current generation of computer tech. We are basically taking the data generated by machines invented decades ago, and using statistics to optimize a few % of productivity points more out of them every year. This optimization applies to humans to - one day you'll be required to have an OBD dongle monitoring your driving data to get car insurance, for instance. Many facets of your life will be monitored and fed into a company's individualized production function or pricing equation.

When the economic cake is growing slowly, every last drop of productivity enhancement counts, and ML is doing a good job at shaving a few basis points off basic costs, such as energy (see DeepMind's work on Google's datacenters), transportation (autonomous cars), and human capital (making some simple jobs redundant). That's why everyone is piling into IoT/ML/AI right now.

What ML is NOT doing is creating a new paradigm/market/computing platform. It's optimizing old markets and technologies. It's not baking new cakes.

We'll see a new platform soon. The cycle of human technological progress has been chugging along steadily for a long time and has sped up exponentially in the past 200 years. I'm sure some new tech will come along soon that will allow us to bake more cakes instead of spreading icing ever-thinner on the ones we already have.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by halflings on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @07:02PM (#14363548)
Generally agree that ML is often shaving off a few % after all the low hanging fruits that can be achieved without it have been exploited, but...

> What ML is NOT doing is creating a new paradigm/market/computing platform. It's optimizing old markets and technologies. It's not baking new cakes.

This is simply not true: there are many products/markets (such as automatic translation, speech recognition) that are simply not possible without this progress in ML.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by pas on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:55AM (#14366203)
What's the paradigm?

In translate it replaces a naive translator's job. In speech recognition it gives you a new-ish interface to systems.

In prediction and personalization it gives you what you likely want. (Local weather, local traffic info, local news, in the language it knows you understand, in the format you prefer, at the time it think you most likely want it, etc..).

It puts some "smart" into things. But translate is just a smart dictionary, it's not a real translator, for that we need stronger AI (something like the Jeopardy playing Watson + Google Knowledge Graph / FreeBase + language translation + it should ask questions if it doesn't understand something).

ML is amazing, but it's just a slow march toward more and more adaptive smarts (general intelligence) in a box (hence artificial). And there's probably a tipping point for that. When it can start to learn, or program itself, blablabla... ( https://intelligence.org/2013/04/29/intelligence-explosion-m... )

Re:Google I/O 2017 by halflings on Thursday May 18, 2017 @11:45AM (#14368205)
If we look at things from that point of view, then nothing is new.

What are computers good for? They are just replacing a calculator, which was just replacing some manual calculation machines, which were just replacing mental calculus.

A "naive translator's job" cannot translate arbitrary sentences for free and instantaneously. We are not far from real-time (and quality) translation that will make it possible to talk to somebody in a foreign language and have everything translated on the go (there's already a feature that replaces text in a foreign language in the image you're viewing).

I don't know :) I think I'm quite satisfied with the level of disruption ML is bringing to the world. And I feel people are constantly pushing away against this ("This is not real AI!") every time we start to understand how these things work.

Reinforcement Learning is the case of a program teaching itself (without training data or instructions) but I still, some will argue it is not AI because "it's just maths and engineering hacks", I guess.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by pas on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:03PM (#14376963)
I understand how ML/AI works, and there are great things like collaborative filtering, self-driving whatevers, "expert systems" (IBM Watson), magical image processing (which just shows how much detail our own brains just imagines and fills in for us in non-ideal conditions).

I'm not saying it's not real AI, I'm saying I can't wait for the time when these separate components/models can be "synergized", when one big system can be trained for multiple tasks, and when it can train itself tasks.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by catmanjan on Thursday May 18, 2017 @02:58AM (#14365332)
>one day you'll be required to have an OBD dongle monitoring your driving data to get car insurance, for instance

FYI there is a company in Australia that already does this, well, you get discounts if your device shows that you're a safe driver or something...

Re:Google I/O 2017 by Eridrus on Thursday May 18, 2017 @10:35AM (#14367534)
I think there's a real danger to underestimating small % improvements over time, depending on how you're measuring.

Especially if you're looking at error rates; 99% accuracy is very different to 95% accuracy is very different to 90% etc.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by Eridrus on Thursday May 18, 2017 @10:24AM (#14367446)
I think this depends on what you see as the downfall of these previous companies. If you agree with Christensen's theory of disruptive innovation, the issue was that large companies would undervalue small markets that could grow to become large markets.

When seen in this light, it would be surprising if ML were a disruptive technology, since it falls more into the "sustaining" category of innovation.

Most of the large tech companies were built on technologies that no-one expected to become world-defining companies at the time.

With all this focus on ML/AI, it would be very surprising if a small ML/AI shop became huge, rather then getting bought or replicated.

Almost by definition, the big companies of the next era will come from the spaces that large companies are ignoring.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by AndrewKemendo on Thursday May 18, 2017 @12:54PM (#14368845)
the big companies of the next era will come from the spaces that large companies are ignoring.

My entire point is that they aren't ignoring any spaces, they have all future spaces accounted for by having their tentacles in literally everything possible that could be future tech.

Bldinsides come from different industries, so they need to cover their bases from all directions, so that's what they all have done with their projects, products, investments in...AI, Energy, Biology, Transportation, Infrastructure, Waste Disposal, Agriculture the list goes on.

The time of the non-ubiquitous firm is over.

AFGAM aren't software companies, they are innovation conglomerates. I mean why do you think google changed to Alphabet?

Re:Google I/O 2017 by Eridrus on Thursday May 18, 2017 @01:03PM (#14368934)
Right, but this has less to do with the fundamentals of ML as a technology, rather than the less sexy explanation of better management practices.
Re:Google I/O 2017 by AndrewKemendo on Thursday May 18, 2017 @03:58PM (#14370576)
They are inextricably linked. If you organize your company around ML, as Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft and Apple have stated they are doing, then yes it does have to do with the fundamentals of ML.

Advances and implementations of ML is driving the creation and iteration of products for these companies, as well as helping them run their companies and evaluate where to go next - follow the data as it were.

So it is a critical point that every one of their CEOs has outlined in clear detail over the past few years.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by antognini on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @03:57PM (#14362243)
You may be right for the time being, but I don't think we're permanently entering a brave new world where machine learning startups are doomed to fail to the big tech companies. It's well known that existing machine learning algorithms are extremely inefficient learners, which is why you need enormous datasets and computing resources to be competitive currently. Right now, for instance, a computer would need to see thousands of different images of a new animal to recognize it consistently, whereas a human only needs to see a single hand-drawn sketch. If someone can develop machine learning techniques that make computers generalize as flexibly as humans, that would be a huge game changer and would completely upend the advantages that the big tech companies have.
Re:Google I/O 2017 by trhway on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @04:19PM (#14362420)
>Right now, for instance, a computer would need to see thousands of different images of a new animal to recognize it consistently, whereas a human only needs to see a single hand-drawn sketch.

valid question here would be - would a fresh human mind perform that well too? Or may be such performance is conditioned upon having at least several years of experience of living on planet Earth and thus having the models of animals and everything else around been built using billions of images that human eyes would have generated during those years?

> It's well known that existing machine learning algorithms are extremely inefficient learners, which is why you need enormous datasets and computing resources to be competitive currently.

when put into perspective, i.e. compared with the cardinality of the above mentioned set of images human eyes generate and computational performance of the brain - 40K TFlops - computers don't look that inefficient learners to me.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by antognini on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @05:02PM (#14362760)
> valid question here would be - would a fresh human mind perform that well too?

I think it's questions like this that will point the way forward. Humans definitely don't come working at 100% as soon as we're born. Lots of interaction with the environment is necessary to become a functioning person. But at the same time, we still seem to have a real ability to generalize hard-wired in. A human in a small society might only speak with a few dozen individuals growing up, but they don't get confused when they meet a new person and hear a new voice.

It seems to me that lots of data will be necessary to get things off the ground --- but I think the sort of "big data" needed for this will be qualitatively different than the big datasets used to train modern state of the art models. My hunch is that it will involve an agent's interactions with its environment (so it will look something like reinforcement learning).

Re:Google I/O 2017 by pas on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:02AM (#14366233)
For a playful yet pretty interesting take on "psychogenesis" I recommend reading Diaspora by Greg Egan.

Also, we are born with very good models (for faces, cognition of human languages + speaking and hearing them, seeing things on Earth, movement coordination, other cognitive fundamentals, like counting, categorization, and so on) plus all of that really well packaged as a starter kit, a do-it-yourself general intelligence, with amazing supervisory framework (parents, peers, society, reflective optimization about one's actions) and reinforcement (emotions, memory coding is waaay too drastically modulated by emotions).

And we're still not sure what else is in there, how all this communicates. What's the operating system of consciousness? (We "know" that consciousness is just a "program", but is it the main thread, is it a scheduler, what's the right mental model for understanding the interaction of brain faculties, components of cognition and consciousness itself?)

Re:Google I/O 2017 by webmaven on Thursday May 18, 2017 @01:45PM (#14369362)
> A human in a small society might only speak with a few dozen individuals growing up, but they don't get confused when they meet a new person and hear a new voice.

It does seems pretty well established that some humans overfit on the particular aspects of verbal communication that we generally call "accent" (not to mention actual lects), even when given access to a much larger and more diverse set of individuals and their utterances to generalise from.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @04:07PM (#14362332)
If someone can develop machine learning techniques that make computers generalize as flexibly as humans

Funny you should mention that...

Deepmind (acquired by Google in 2014) goal: "DeepMind Technologies' goal is to "solve intelligence" Demis has gone one to say elsewhere their goal is to create AGI

Also, the data you need to get there is owned by a few companies. Also those companies hire effectively every great ML PhD on the planet.

It's well known that existing machine learning algorithms are extremely inefficient learners

Right, which is why the heads of research at AFGAM are the pre-eminent minds in the field (Lecun, Hinton etc...) and are actively working on this along with unsupervised learning. These companies are either funding university labs that are developing this stuff or doing it in house.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by thwd on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @03:39PM (#14362096)
On the other hand, #3 might in this case be exactly that: Small companies creating accurate & precise modeling techniques using only a limited amount of data, while giants continue to rely on the sheer and blunt volume of it.
Re:Google I/O 2017 by trhway on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @04:03PM (#14362296)
>Small companies creating accurate & precise modeling techniques using only a limited amount of data, while giants continue to rely on the sheer and blunt volume of it.

until of course sheer and blunt volume allows to build more accurate and precise models. To me this is exactly at the core of the current AI wave - the models emerging inside deep representational layers are more complex, accurate and precise way beyond whatever human analytical thinking could have built or even just come up with. My friend just couple days ago was talking about one specific multi-year effort few years ago to constructively build a practical model of sentiment analysis which i in turn contrasted with that recent result from OpenAI of "sentiment neuron" emerging from [unsupervised] learning of next character in Amazon reviews.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @03:00PM (#14361687)
Machine learning might stop this cycle by breaking step #3.

Yea that's exactly what I think is happening, and in fact that's one of the core promises of being first into AI - you use it to move faster than anyone else can because it gives you better intelligence and prediction.

Even more so with AGI, which Deepmind (Alphabet company) has explictly stated they are trying to create.

Re:Google I/O 2017 by romaniv on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @05:32PM (#14362997)
I've been wondering the same thing. It is why I don't like the fact that we need increasingly specialized types of computers to do ML. This is also why I am very interested in research that is not based on deep neural networks, which seem to be especially hungry in terms of training data and hardware power.