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Re:A Farm Grows in the City by macawfish on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @01:36PM (#14351533)
Have you ever tasted wild herbs? There's just no way this will ever replicate wild herbs.

I recently ate an out of season "heirloom tomato" grown in Mexico and shipped to my local coop in Minnesota. It was "organic", and it looked like an heirloom tomato. But it had no taste. It was clearly grown in depleted soil. I've grown heirloom tomatoes, as well as beefsteak and other more conventional varieties. Food grown in a garden tastes better. There are more nutrients available to them. Plants are chemical-mineral-sun beings. They grow abundantly in diverse ecosystems and offer their fruits with no violence.

Why is this artificial shit necessary? It's not.

People don't appreciate the profound and beautiful foundations of "old" technologies. Paper. Knots. Gardening. Cooking. Woodworking. Compost. Herbal medicine. Music. Many of these artforms (sciences, really) are miles ahead of the fancy capitalist stuff in terms of their nuance, their simplicity, their integration with human wellbeing.

And they're free.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by sloppycee on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:11PM (#14351874)
I'm pretty sure the reason your fruits and veggies don't taste right is because they have to be shipped unripened to prevent spoilage. It's why fruit from the farmers market tastes better, it was grown until ripe and shipped locally.

Technologies, like the ones mentioned in this article, change the entire supply chain; fruits and vegetables become "in-season" all year round. They will no longer have to be shipped unripened, and should have a better flavour.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by arcaster on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:18PM (#14351951)
I really enjoy keeping a number of honey bee colonies in the summer on my rooftop in Boston. However, you lost me at "herbal medicine".
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by Rmilb on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:58PM (#14352283)
Just because something is natural does not mean it is healthy, safe or effective, but dismissing all types of herbal medicine that some people have been using for thousands of years seems too dismissive. I hate to be that guy, but the science is starting to pile up for the medicinal pot group.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by seunosewa on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @06:26PM (#14353867)
There is a word for any herbal medicine that actually works: medicine. It gets studied and the active ingredient is extracted and synthesized by pharmaceutical companies.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by macawfish on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @01:20PM (#14360559)
That's the thing, there aren't "active" and "inactive" ingredients. There are webs of phytochemicals that have dynamic interactions with one another and with the human body. Reductive medicine is missing that point over and over again. It's not possible to extract single ingredients that have the same effects as the qualitative mixtures phytochemicals in plants. Not only that, interacting with the plants on a human, physical level is nurturing in and of itself. There are so many pathways for information to get into the body. I want to drink lavender tea when I'm feeling a particular kind of anxiety. The smell alone calms me. The color is soothing. The way the tea feels when I drink it is warm. I enjoy the way it tastes. The taste and smell remind me of memories and moods. It works very well. It doesn't cover "general anxiety" for me. I wouldn't offer it as a prescription to someone who tells me they have "anxiety". It works better in cases of "spiritual crisis", to help maintain a bigger picture after a death or tragedy, than it does for acute frantic, nervous feelings. In those cases, I prefer valerian, chamomile or holy basil.

You're bullshitting me if you think I'm gonna prefer to take a pill with "holy basil extract" over a delicious cup of holy basil tea. Absolutely not.

And tell me how to "extract" rooibos? What parts are you going to put into pills? Can you extract the taste? Can you extract the nutrients? Would you make one pill for the antioxidants and another for the vitamin C?

It used to be thought that THC was "the active ingredient" in cannabis. Well, it turns out that THC and CBD, along with numerous other varieties of cannabinoids, interact dynamically in the body, modulating one anothers' effects. Studies have shown that CBD quells the psychosis inducing effects of THC very well. But CBD on its own isn't necessarily a strong antipsychotic. It'd need to be taken in large doses to have that effect.

The idea that "germs cause disease" is a similar misconception. Bacterial infections are symptoms of larger ecological imbalances in the body's microbiome. Sometimes infections are really caused by antibiotics (if you wanna point fingers), as is the case with C. Difficile infections that take hold in guts whose flora have been nuked by antibiotics.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by pc2g4d on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:32PM (#14352083)
I'm not convinced that's the entire explanation. Don't things keep being discovered about the bacteria living around the roots in the soil interacting with the plant to provide much of their nutrition? A growing plant is a massively complex system. Tweaking how they grow likely has unintended consequences.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by szoops on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:59PM (#14352287)
Mycorrhizae are perfectly happy in a hydroponic system. But you are right, there are many things we don't understand and some growers don't do things correctly that we do understand.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by macawfish on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @01:27PM (#14360628)
We get plenty of tasty fruits and veggies that are shipped from all over the world. This was something different. These had no nutrients. My hunch is that they were grown in mineral depleted soil.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by newhere420 on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:19PM (#14351964)
> There's just no way this will ever replicate wild herbs.

Why not? What environment or characteristic of plants grown in the wild is impossible to recreate in a controlled environment? Arguably, plants can be grown "in-season" all year round with technology like this, and be sold fresh the same day it is picked.

> Why is this artificial shit necessary? It's not.

Maybe growing food within the cities will help us to feed a dense local population, while at the same time minimising the impact on the countryside. Thus leaving the countryside natural for those who want to appreciate it.

Living in Britain, I despair at the eradication of the countryside. Natural environment has been almost exclusively replaced by farm land to grow food for our ever growing population, and we are still quite a long way from being self-sufficient.

Also, work like this will help if we want to colonise space.

> People don't appreciate the profound and beautiful foundations of "old" technologies

Are you the arbiter on what everyone else should be appreciating? Although you are free to appreciate and enjoy anything you like, other people such as myself derive deep pleasure from observing the constant onward march of technology and industry.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by terravion on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @01:49PM (#14351653)
Actually, they aren't free. That's the point, that's what's cool about indoor farming. It is the ultimate in agricultural intensification, even if marketed as some sort of sustainability. The land required to support a human goes way down as agricultural intensity goes up. It is actually weird, but a hunter gatherer "living in harmony with nature" actually does orders of magnitude more ecological damage per human than industrialized society.

Having a 1 acre garden as a hobby, is huge ecological violence since industrialized agriculture requires far less than half an acre per person and the loss of habitat is the same.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by wavefunction on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:03PM (#14351795)
>a hunter gatherer "living in harmony with nature" actually does orders of magnitude more ecological damage per human than industrialized society.

I'm not sure how this is true. Perhaps you can persuade me?

A one acre garden is not a "hobby" in my opinion. The amount of work involved in cultivating an entire acre is immense. As well, a personal garden is unlikely to be a monoculture which is even worse ecologically in my opinion than a loss of efficiency. Plus there's all that Round-up...

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by freeflight on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:52PM (#14352227)
>I'm not sure how this is true. Perhaps you can persuade me?

This could actually apply to the hunter&gatherer because those didn't care much about sustainability. When a region was picked/hunted empty they simply moved to a new region, few enough of us around back then so this actually worked and regions had time to recover.

Now imagine nearly 7 billion humans living the same way: Gathering/hunting everything in their closest region until most of it is gone just to move on to a new region, no permaculture at all. It wouldn't take long before there wouldn't be anything left to hunt or gather.

>A one acre garden is not a "hobby" in my opinion. The amount of work involved in cultivating an entire acre is immense.

Not every one-acre garden is actually cultivated, that's how some people are able to have them as a hobby ;)

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by m_coder on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:04PM (#14351803)
>>Having a 1 acre garden as a hobby, is huge ecological violence

Can you explain how this hobby is so violent? I don't think I am following the line of thought.

The typical one acre hobby garden is farmed with far fewer chemicals than the typical commercial farm. There is far more diversity and a better balance of minerals. Compost is often used and waste is effectively recycled.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by hs44 on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:19PM (#14351960)
>>Having a 1 acre garden as a hobby, is huge ecological violence

..context dropping..compared to the lawn or parking lot that might be there?

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by TeMPOraL on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:19PM (#14351966)
I think the parent meant that people having 1 acre hobby gardens are wasting space that could be more efficiently used by industrialized agriculture, and thus if you'd replace modern farming with family gardens, you'd destroy many more animal habitats.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by m_coder on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @03:16PM (#14352407)
The space isn't what is used efficiently by industrialized agriculture (for the most part). The efficiency comes from saving time by having large machines. Space is used most efficiently when you have people actively involved on small plots.
Re:A Farm Grows in the City by randomdata on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @04:07PM (#14352838)
> Space is used most efficiently when you have people actively involved on small plots.

Wouldn't the area needed for the active involvement of people require more space than commercial agriculture, where large machines can do a lot on a small footprint? A sprayer with 12 inch tires and a 120 foot boom can effectively 'weed' 118 feet of growing area with just two feet required for the tires. I'm not so sure a person with a hoe can beat that.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by Amygaz on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @08:45PM (#14354672)
You can plant crops much closer to each others using an hexagonal pattern. It's one part of what constitute "biointensive gardening". The only way to beat that is if the harvesting machinery is hovering over the field.

And s sprayer only spray, it does not harvest anything. They actually make UAV sprayer, though...

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by randomdata on Wednesday May 17, 2017 @10:25PM (#14364434)
> You can plant crops much closer to each others using an hexagonal pattern.

A traditional seed drill, for crops that can be suitably planted with one, plants rows 7.5 inches apart and spacing within the row is even closer. There is really no room for a human to comfortably exist within that space without tramping the crop. I'm not sure I understand how a hexagonal pattern opens up space for a person in that circumstance without reducing the growth area?

> And s sprayer only spray, it does not harvest anything.

For many crops you're not concerned about, even desire, wiping out the entire plant.

> They actually make UAV sprayer, though...

Certainly. Crop dusting has been a thing for as long as flying has been a viable human achievement. Although with larger and larger machines on the ground able to have a smaller and smaller footprint relative to the working area (and precision technology ensuring that the machine obeys an exact footprint), the practice seems to be going out of favour.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by marcosdumay on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:14PM (#14351908)
Indoor farming can only be more intense than outdoor if you power it with nuclear or fossil fuels...

Humanity is currently migrating into solar power. There's no way you will gain any area by adding conversions on the way through the plants. You get better reliability, easier pest controls (without additives), and lots of other things, but you can never gain in area use.

Re:A Farm Grows in the City by szoops on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:56PM (#14352259)
Have you actually tasted it?

Many of the modern varieties of mass-produced produce have been bred to overcome pests and harsh conditions. not flavor. By moving the plants indoors we overcome both issues and can grow in optimal conditions where we can focus on taste and texture. Plus by growing close to the point of consumption the food is fresher and tastier and can be harvested when ripe and not a week before so as is currently the case. Additionally the nutrient levels in CEA (Controlled Environment Agriculture) crops is usually above a field grown crop (https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/are-hydroponic-veg...)