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Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by Animats on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:21PM (#14295242)
"If the President had picked me to predict which country [in postwar Europe] would recover first, I would say, 'Bring me the records of maintenance.' The nation with the best maintenance will recover first. Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western. They haven't got it in Russia. If I got in there in the warehouse, let's say, and I saw that the broom had a special nail, I would say, 'This is the nail of immortality.'" - Eric Hoffer
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by jalayir on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:44PM (#14296317)
> Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western

Not really. The need for maintenance occurs when a specific "Thing" has been around for long enough, and when the institutions, schools of thought that sustain that Thing persist for long enough. When there are radical, rapid political/economic/political changes, "maintenance" and the need for maintenance goes away. This article focusses on maintenance of industrial artifacts, and nowhere in recent times have industrial artifacts (boats, lifts, software), the companies that produce them, and the living standards they create, and the governments that encourage them been continuously existent longer than the "Western countries" (since the early 1800s at least). If you were to look outside the sphere of industrial artifacts, for example at old religious buildings - churches, mosques, temples - you'll see solid examples of good maintenance all over the world. The Koran, a literary artifact, for example, has been well-maintained for over a thousand years across the world by a mostly pre-industrial society.

TLDR: Keeping something running isn't just a "Western" thing - but keeping industrial products running is certainly Western, because only the West has seen a continuous and sustained industrial movement for over 200+ years.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by Animats on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:28PM (#14296802)
There used to be major US companies that were really into maintenance, and pverbuilding for low maintenance. The Bell System. The Pennsylvania Railroad (the Standard Railroad of the World). The King Ranch (the King Ranch line was "we don't fix fence, we build fence.") Teletype Corporation. IBM. Xerox.

There's something to be said for that.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by throwaway91111 on Monday May 08, 2017 @09:12PM (#14296997)
Reading the quote, it seems the east/west divide is along first/third world rather than the traditional hellenestic divisions.

Nonetheless, it does diminish the quotation.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by AcerbicZero on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:41PM (#14296300)
Hoffer is wrong. He's confusing different military philosophies with this mixed up idea about national identity regarding "maintenance".

I don't think anyone would suggest Germany didn't perform a minor miracle by rebuilding as quickly as they did (with massive support), but the Russians went from having half their country burned to the ground, to a world superpower (also with a large amount of support), in a shorter time span than it took West Germany to return to pre-war industrial levels.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by abalashov on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:32PM (#14296818)
More than half. The vast majority of Soviet population and industrial base was in the burned-down part.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by mee_too on Monday May 08, 2017 @07:55PM (#14296644)
Who supported Russia after the war?
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by Nomentatus on Monday May 08, 2017 @10:29PM (#14297325)
The conquered countries that were stripped of a good part of what they had, largely.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by e2e4 on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @01:41AM (#14297957)
would appreciate a reference.

p.s. many parts of eastern europe has been destroyed during the war as well; and was getting rebuild themselves.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by flohofwoe on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @03:07AM (#14298248)
Most of what was left of factories in the Soviet occupation zone (the later GDR) was dismantled and moved to the Soviet Union as reparation in the years after WW2. Here's some info in English about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_German_Democrat...

When I was young I heard a lot of crazy stories about the Russians in Germans (I grew up in the Erzgebirge mountains where the Russians mined the Uranium for their atomic bombs, think of an Eastern 20th century gold rush), some of those stories are how entire production lines were moved onto trains and to the Soviet Union nearly over night (they had a lot of experience with this since a few years earlier the Soviet Union basically moved their entire military production a few thousand kilometers eastward, out of the war zone).

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by e2e4 on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @04:45PM (#14353160)
Interesting, thanks.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by batushka on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @08:38AM (#14299451)
Here's a reference for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag People all across occupied lands were enslaved (on paper sentenced for some nonsense and send to workjails)
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by AcerbicZero on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @12:01PM (#14309241)
I was referring to the massive lend-lease support, and the continued industrial support provided to the Soviet Union during the war, not after war. I should have been more clear about that.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by nine_k on Monday May 08, 2017 @10:59PM (#14297428)
But this measure, Japan proved to be utterly Western. They also recovered brilliantly, as predicted.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by pimlottc on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:43PM (#14295895)
Er, can you explain that last sentence?
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by SIRHAMY on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:51PM (#14295951)
A nail as in its own rack to hang on. Because they value that broom and its mission enough to go through the trouble of creating a rack for it, you could imagine that they put some higher value in that mission (maintenance) and its role in accomplishing it.

At least, that's what I got out of it.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by Animats on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:24PM (#14296197)
It's quite real. TechShop once had racks for their brooms and dustpans. After two moves, the mid-peninsula TechShop lost their broom racks. Maintenance went downhill about that time.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by pharrlax on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:09PM (#14296103)
That's about when the LSD started kicking in.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by milquetoastaf on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:52PM (#14295964)
>Maintenance is something very, very specifically Western.

Yep, no other cultures maintain anything.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by euske on Monday May 08, 2017 @07:35PM (#14296554)
This is pretty laughable. To me, almost every Western country is half-broken. When I lived in the US, I was surprised how frequent power faults were there. Streets are full of bumps and corroded pipes were everywhere. And in Europe. Do they have any concept of a decent public bathroom over there? Oh, and don't get me started on how badly their trains are operating. I bet that many train accidents are due to the poor maintenance. It's probably true that maintenance is less paid an attention in poor countries, and there are more non-Western countries that are poor. But it's funny that people can get away with a claim like this. It almost sounds like a white supremacist to me.

TL;DR: Japan is nice.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by avn2109 on Monday May 08, 2017 @08:58PM (#14296926)
The GP quote contrasts "the West" to Russia, which is itself overwhelmingly White. It's hard to see a white supremacist angle on a comparison between two majority-white blocs.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by pjc50 on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @07:13AM (#14299025)
In the taxonomy of white supremacists, Russians are "slavic". This was literally part of Hitler's justification for invading eastwards.

("Whiteness" is not simply about skin colour. There's a fascinating/ugly history of how various immigrant groups to America became "white")

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by taneq on Monday May 08, 2017 @09:41PM (#14297126)
Yeah, Japan was my first thought when I read that. You can't tell me with a straight face that they don't maintain everything to within an inch of its life.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by animal531 on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @08:16AM (#14299332)
Ironically except for the single most maintained item in the west, which is a house.

In Japan they are treated as basically disposable.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by taneq on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:19PM (#14312257)
Gotta have a gold sink in your economy somewhere to fight inflation.
Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by 77pt77 on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @10:14AM (#14300154)
> TL;DR: Japan is nice.

True, but was also devastated by a war that allowed rebuilding almost from scratch.

Re:Maintainers make the world go round: Innovation is an ove... by derefr on Monday May 08, 2017 @06:24PM (#14296199)
Maintaining things coincidentally, and thinking in terms of there being such an activity as "maintenance" that you might want to start doing on any given thing if you aren't doing it already, are different things. I can believe that some cultures have no concept of "Total Cost of Ownership" distinct from purchase price, for example.