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Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by orf on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:37PM (#14286814)
I don't agree with the downvotes you are receiving, you make some good overall points (but also some bad ones).

Nothing is dead until it is entirely dead, and the EU idea still runs strong in people. Things need to change, as Brexit and the recent problems faced by the union have shown. Now it's down to the time to reform.

I don't think Macron is choosing the status quo though, hes as much as a political outsider as Trump and I hope he will make some progress in achieving reforms.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by dirtyaura on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:55PM (#14286928)
I don't think Macron is a political outsider. He is from elite schools, served as a finance minister before. What he (and powers that backed him) realized is that political landscapes are changing everywhere and there was an opportunity to run without support of traditional parties. The major political axis is now national/conservative vs global/liberal, instead of traditional economic left vs right.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by petre on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:21PM (#14287070)
Don't fool yourself, it's still left/right and will get even more radicalized as the economic climate worsens and we face disruption (terrorism, migration).
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by dirtyaura on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:55PM (#14287267)
Don't fool yourself: terrorism by a few religious loonies as a problem has been and will be a drop in the ocean.

The real issues are: how we organize work and social security in the global knowledge economy? How we deal with the climate change? How we deal with info ops, which is already much more destabilizing problem for western democracies than terrorism. You are right that migration is tough challenge, how we will handle increasing migration?

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by ameen on Sunday May 07, 2017 @05:57PM (#14287922)
Unfortunate that posting factual thoughts about terrorism are downvoted. The "threat of terrorism" is how the right wants to organize the west.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by user5994461 on Sunday May 07, 2017 @06:09PM (#14287976)
Terrorism is nothing. People are much more worried about healthcare, jobs and pensions.

If you are French, all 3 are mostly nationalized.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by mnm1 on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:03PM (#14286964)
Trump a political outsider. Lol. What a lie and many of the unthinking masses actually believed it. They probably still do. As if billionaires and politicians don't run in the exact same circles. As if it wasn't made crystal clear after the inauguration. Politics and business leadership in the U.S. are the same thing. There's no way in hell anyone's going to make billions without being a political insider.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by RobertoG on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:44PM (#14286856)
"I don't think Macron is choosing the status quo though, hes as much as a political outsider as Trump and I hope he will make some progress in achieving reforms."

Macron was and investment banker and a Minister of Economy. I suppose our definitions of outsider are really different.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by mtgx on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:42PM (#14286848)
What exactly "needs to change"?

When I see people complain about the EU it's usually about "the EU taking their sovereignty and imposing stuff on them".

So if "things are going to change" that means the EU would have to become less like the U.S. (a federal entity), and more like an aggregate of wildly different cultures and regulations (so more like the pre-EU Europe).

Is that really a good thing? And do things "need to change" that way? Or is more education necessary about why the EU needs to become more homogeneous and less heterogeneous?

I can say one thing - if EU states remain wildly different from each other in culture, language, and regulations, the EU will continue to remain a much less appealing market than the US. And it's not so much that the laws are "stricter" (like say the privacy ones), as it is about the laws being different in each country, and making it hard for a company to be compliant with all of them. And I think that means fewer options and fewer quality products for Europeans in the end (you'll be stuck with your locally-made products).

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by sparkling on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:50PM (#14286886)
What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed. The EU as it is right now is becoming the next Sovient Union. A undemocratic, centralised, bureaucratic superstate that strips the people from their sovereignty, independence, cultural and ethnic traditions.

Further, you seem to assume that without the EU, trade between countries would somehow radically decrease, i don't see that happening. The European Economic Area (EEA) and the Schengen treaty exist independently from the EU. Norway and Switzerland are not members of the EU, yet they trade perfectly fine with others. The EU is not necessary for free trade.

PS: Feel free to downvote, but at least make an argument.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by dirtyaura on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:05PM (#14286975)
I think EU is pretty logical extension if you have both EEA (free trade) and Schengen (free movement of people). If USA was just a collection of independent states with free trade agreement and free movement of people, we would live in a very different world.

Benefits is that there are a lot to negotiate internally besides free trade agreements and it gives negotiation power in the global arena, now that there are at least 3 superpowers (USA, China, Russia to the lesser extent).

(P.S. Didn't downvote)

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by d215 on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:02PM (#14286961)
> What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed.

First, If we would never try what in the past has failed then we would be really in a very stagnant state. Second, the EU has not failed, the EU is still the main reason for the prosperity most of its members have gained and still continue to gain after WWII. That it has had some backlashes recently does not mean at all that it has failed.

> The EU is not necessary for free trade.

It is not. It is however necessary for a internal economic market that guarantees the free flow of capital and labor, which is much wider/different in scope than free trade. Free trade can be arranged with a few trade treaties in neo liberal style.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by sparkling on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:05PM (#14286980)
> It is however necessary for a internal economic market that guarantees the free flow of capital and labor

That is, by definition, the purpose of the European Economic Area. Not the EU.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by germanier on Sunday May 07, 2017 @04:59PM (#14287647)
Which (apart from agriculture and fishery) regularly incorporates the EU acquis as an integral part of how it's set up. I would more accurately describe the purpose of the EEA as "provide a way of EU membership without calling it such".
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by petre on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:38PM (#14287174)
Austria Hungary has failed. The Soviet Union has failed even though everybody in it was speaking Russian, which is not the case with the EU. The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. The difference is that unlike Austria Hungary and the USSR, it does not have a standing army to back its power and member states will leave when economic crisis hits and it's no longer in their best interests to stay.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by sangnoir on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:58PM (#14287279)
> The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power.

I keep hearing this argument, but I've never heard any supporting arguments. What evidence is there that "sovereignty" is optimal at the administrative scale of modern-day nation-states and not EU-sized scales, or going the other direction, at provincial, city or district levels?

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by dragonwriter on Sunday May 07, 2017 @04:05PM (#14287308)
The EU, incidentally, is the scale of a large modern day nation-state. It's obviously a bigger scale then it's own constituent nation-states, but then so are China, India, Ruusia, and the USA.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by polotics on Sunday May 07, 2017 @04:58PM (#14287630)
The evidence is to be found in the study of monetary policy. Depending on your political inclination, I suggest a web search for late Thatcher speeches, or Varoufakis books. Ideally, both.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by sangnoir on Sunday May 07, 2017 @05:08PM (#14287687)
Thatcher only convinces me Manchester would have been better off as a city-state, setting it's own monetary policy instead of Thatcherism.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by ttepasse on Monday May 08, 2017 @11:10AM (#14292161)
Germany was build out of different german speaking principalities. Germany was problematic in the 20th century but the problems were against its neighbours, not within.

And then there are those 13 ex-colonies, now 50, which dared to want an ever closer union. They had a civil war, yes, but since then secession seems to out of the picture.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by petre on Monday May 08, 2017 @04:14PM (#14295178)
They were already speaking German and Otto von Bismarck and did lend them a bit of a helping hand, pissing off the French in the process, which pretty much led to both world wars.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by Atropos on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:21PM (#14287064)
Could you please refresh my memory: Which of the Soviet Union states was allowed to hold a referendum on whether it should leave?
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by sparkling on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:25PM (#14287090)
All of them, as specified in article 26 in the Treaty on the Creation of the Sovient Union.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by Atropos on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:43PM (#14287201)
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by ethelward on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @02:13AM (#14298063)
Czechoslovakia wasn't part of the USSR.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by RobertoG on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:48PM (#14286870)
Of course, you can find all kind of opinions, but it seems to me, that the EU (more specifically the Euroarea) could be just a loose commercial and travel area without a common currency or a real federation with economics stabilizer between regions and a real democratic mandate.

What it can't be is something in the middle, like it's now.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by AnimalMuppet on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:55PM (#14295984)
> What exactly "needs to change"?

The EU feels out of touch, unresponsive, "undemocratic". Whether it is or not isn't the issue; it feels that way to too many people. Many people therefore feel very little emotional affinity with the EU. If the EU is going to survive, that needs to change, because it opens the door to anti-EU populists in several countries. If enough win, the EU could become a skeleton of what it is now.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by roryisok on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:13PM (#14287013)
> if EU states remain wildly different from each other in culture, language, and regulations, the EU will continue to remain a much less appealing market than the US.

Sounds like you're advocating erasing the cultural and linguistic variety of the member states in favour of a common language and culture so that American companies can sell things more easily?

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by Boothroid on Sunday May 07, 2017 @02:40PM (#14286831)
A former Rothschild banker - surely part of the establishment, but perhaps a different part
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by cm2187 on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:13PM (#14287007)
It's funny that he has this image of being a banker. This guy did all of his career at the ministry of finance or in a minister's staff, then went to monetize his address book for two years in a bank before coming back to politics. I don't really see him as a banker. I see him as a civil servant and a networking artist.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by Boothroid on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:16PM (#14287030)
I am now better informed. Thank you.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by pottersbasilisk on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:17PM (#14287034)
Political outsider doesnt mean anti-establishment. Trump is clearly anti-establishment. Macron was pro-eu.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by tradersam on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:26PM (#14287099)
I think it has been proven Trump isn't actually anti-establishment, that was just a lie he used during the campaign.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by BatFastard on Sunday May 07, 2017 @05:39PM (#14287834)
Trump seems to be Pro-Trump, anything else is just convenience or political favor.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by sangnoir on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:51PM (#14287246)
Has it been proven? One of his advisers is on the record stating that the cabinet was chosen to "deconstruct the administrative state"[1], and Trump proceeded to appoint individuals (at least 2 by my reckoning) with beliefs contrary to the missions of the agencies they lead.

1. http://fortune.com/2017/02/25/bannon-trump-cabinet-cpac/

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by ZeroGravitas on Sunday May 07, 2017 @04:09PM (#14287335)
I guess it depends on whether you think the EPA, and public schooling, have traditionally helped or hindered the "establishment".

If you think wars for oil in the mid-east etc. are what the establishment wants, then the scientists at the EPA are a threat to that.

If you think the establishment are Al Gore and his fellow communist hoaxers, then wrecking the EPA is an anti-elitists move.

Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by tradersam on Sunday May 07, 2017 @09:47PM (#14288724)
True, he appointed terrible people to the head of some important organizations. Dismantling them could be labeled "anti-establishment" but if they were a net win for humanity and kill/downsizing is a net win for business, that is clearly the establishment trope of pandering to big business.
Re:French election: Macron defeats Le Pen by orf on Sunday May 07, 2017 @03:37PM (#14287171)
Trump is not anti-establishment at all.