> by using an editor that provides the appropriate assistance.

To spell it out: this means Emacs with Paredit, or an imitation thereof.

Having to depend on an editor to make your code legible seems like a bad thing.

Especially since most IDE's seem to go out of their way to make sludge out of the text, unless you have hours to spend training each one, and can figure out how to do so...

... until your coworker edits the file in the out of the box IDE and munges it.

I guess now-a-days, our languages and frameworks are so ugly they need a "bag" over their [inter]face while you are doing them :-)

Why? (And what language do you use where you don't have to rely on the editor to format your code?)

To me, that's a sign that maybe a language has too little syntax.

I can read C++, Javascript and PHP just as well in plain text because the other non-paren elements provide necessary contextual cues, along with nesting. Syntax coloring is helpful, but it shouldn't be necessary.

I can at least understand nesting closing parens on their own lines, the way Roboprog did above, but throwing all of them on a single line just seems like needless noise.

It's not something we ever really think about. That list of closing parentheses just signals termination of the top-level S-expression.

And there's virtually nobody coding in a Lisp that doesn't use a structural editing mode (like Paredit or SmartParens). E.g., any time you type "(", you get "()", enforcing balance.

What we rely on is proper indentation to indicate the important groupings.

Exactly. IMHO, this is quite similar to Python indentation rules, except it is up to writers of Lisp code to be disciplined enough to maintain the proper indentation.

Hmm, my editor does it for me.

Wait, even Lisp does that for me, because it has a built-in source code pretty printer:

Call the pretty printer to format this mess:

    CL-USER 41 > (let ((*print-case* :downcase))
    (pprint '(defun add-text-padding
    (str &key padding newline)
    "Add padding to text STR. Every line except for the first one, will be
    prefixed with PADDING spaces. If NEWLINE is non-NIL, newline character will
    be prepended to the text making it start on the next line with padding
    applied to every single line."
    (let ((str (if newline (concatenate 'string (string #\Newline) str) str)))
    (with-output-to-string (s) (map 'string (lambda (x) (princ x s) (when (char= x #\Newline)
    (dotimes (i padding) (princ #\Space s)))) str))))
    ))

It prints wonderfully formatted and indented code:

    (defun add-text-padding (str &key padding newline)
      "Add padding to text STR. Every line except for the first one, will be
    prefixed with PADDING spaces. If NEWLINE is non-NIL, newline character will
    be prepended to the text making it start on the next line with padding
    applied to every single line."
      (let ((str
             (if newline
                 (concatenate 'string (string #\Newline) str)
               str)))
        (with-output-to-string (s)
          (map 'string
               (lambda (x)
                 (princ x s)
                 (when (char= x #\Newline)
                   (dotimes (i padding) (princ #\Space s))))
               str))))

Now one would only need to fix this beginner level code.

No. Our editors auto-indent the code for us. This is one of the reasons Lisp syntax is better than python. Python syntax does not have enough information to auto-indent so it really is up to the programmer. Not so with Lisp.

I hate when I code python and refactor stuff, moving stuff around and such, that I cant just copy/clip around and then do a final 'indent all my work correctly' like I can in a language like lisp.

I am kind of developing a grudge against whitespace sensitive languages. Not because it forces the programmer to indent properly, but because it disables my editors abilities to do it for me.

Actually, Python has the equivalent of open-parens: the colon. What it doesn't have is close-parens, but if you use emacs then it will outdent on PASS and RETURN statements. In my personal coding style I always put PASS statements at the end of block so my code auto-indents properly. Hard-core Pythonistas hate this, but I really don't care what they think.

Actually I write Lisp code, but I use neither Paredit nor SmartParens. I don't automatically balance my parentheses.

Thanks. Almost nobody liked my comment (downvoted), but it sure kicked off a long discussion :-)

I haven't done any actual Lisp since the 80s on a CDC Cyber mainframe and a dedicated expansion card on an Apple II, so I'm "a wee bit" out of date.

I'm very visual / "geometric", so I like to see the "shape" of things. I can't stand looking at stuff "formatted" (?) in the typical enterprise java (8) "staircase of doom" with minimal whitespace, incredibly long lines, with a few arbitrary line wraps that indent to random spots way off on the right.

I swear, many programmers have never considered how newspapers and textbooks are formatted. They don't sprawl text endlessly across even if the paper is wide, they keep it reasonably narrow so your eye can follow it.

Seriously, if you would have showed me the text of the code I'm working on now when I was a year into college in the early 80s, I think I would have changed my major.

To any lisp enthusiasts who wonder why the language family isn't more popular: this is 99% of why. You have to use an editor where "copy" is called "Kill-ring-save" is invoked with "Meta-w". Any attempt to use any other tool will be met with incredulous responses to "just use Emacs".

It's such a shame because the development environment for Lisp could be so much better than other languages. It could be mindblowingly futuristic, instead of mindblowingly archaic.

I've just started using Clojure (another Lisp) and I use IntelliJ IDEa with the Cursive plug-in, with par-infer to deal with the parens.

It works like a charm. I can have a REPL and my code right in front of me, I can cmd-down to go to a function definition, and it's overall a very pleasant developer experience.

Now, I did experiment with Emacs, so I do understand what you're talking about -- kill-ring-save and the related key bindings made zero sense to me, and I was having trouble doing things I'd do easily in IntelliJ.

> You have to use an editor where "copy" is called "Kill-ring-save" is invoked with "Meta-w"

You are misinformed. I'm using a GNU Emacs (-> Aquamacs) on the Mac and cut/paste/copy are invoked with the usual command keys. But usually I use the LispWorks editor, which is also in the Emacs family, and even there cut/copy/paste is the usual command sequence... Both editors are built with excellent Lisp support. One is written in C + Emacs Lisp and the other one in Common Lisp.

> mindblowingly archaic

You haven't even understood the old part, how would you be able to deal with the futuristic part?

> You haven't even understood the old part, how would you be able to deal with the futuristic part?

"You haven't used a PDP-10, how would you be able to deal with a smartphone?"

He didn't talk about old technology like 'smartphones', which existed as products (Nokia Communicator, ...) 20 years ago, but claimed that much better 'futuristic' IDEs for Lisp are possible, though what he claims may currently only exist in his imagination...

Any large piece of software will have its own terminology (car, cdr, frame, window, buffer, yank, kill, meta, ...). It is a shame that people would rather fixate on these superficial things instead of the minimal effort to get familiarized.

I've been programming in Lisp for 17 years now. I've always done it in Vim.

my sincerest condolences