News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by smacktoward on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @12:40PM (#14247941)
I'm kind of gobsmacked at that something like Windows 10 S exists. It's like Microsoft doesn't understand that the absolutely enormous quantity of Win32 apps in use is the moat that protects their Windows business from serious competition. Millions and millions of regular people just assume that it's not really safe for their next computer to be a Mac or a Chromebook or what have you, because they're afraid of the risk of losing access to some niche application they depend on. So they keep on buying Windows machines, not so much from anything about Windows as from the vague feeling that computers that don't run Windows are cut off from the mainstream in some important way they don't fully understand.

And Microsoft is willing -- eager! -- to drain their moat and move to a world where they're just one in a sea of fully interchangeable app stores. It's baffling.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by valuearb on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @01:06PM (#14248227)
How would you feel if you were a Windows pc maker right now?

MSFT commoditized your business and sucked all the profits out of your eco-system until your net margins were 2%, forcing you to cut R&D, Design, etc, and compete in a brutal price war without much hope of unique differentiating features or value.

Now MSFT is directly competing with you by so lavishly spending on design that they are years away from making money on their Surface line.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by Joeri on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:33PM (#14249793)
It wasn't microsoft that killed the margins, it was amazon. Back in the DOS, windows 3.x and even windows 9x era the OS was just as commoditized, yet people willingly paid high margins. They did this because they wanted the service of their local PC store and therefore were willing to pay their margins. With the boom of online stores and easy exchanges/returns the brick and mortar stores went away and with them went the cushy margins.

The thing that really doomed the PC market was not that the easy margins went away, it's that OEM's responded by making their products worse. They cut hardware quality, they bundled crapware. The PC experience got worse year after year. Truthfully, windows 8 did not help, but I still think that if the OEM's had just bundled touch screens across the board it would not have been such an outright disaster. The reduced quality forced people off the platform, to macs at the high end, and to chromebooks at the low end. Granted, mobile would have always caused PC sales to decline, but not as much as they did. It is only recently that the OEM's have started investing again in quality hardware with a pure windows experience, and unsurprisingly last quarter PC sales went up YoY for the first time in five years.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by valuearb on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @05:42PM (#14250902)
Apple has to deal with all these forces and it's maintained healthy margins in Macs. It can do this because it offers a unique product, windows PC makers can't differentiate themselves because they rely on MSFT for R&D.

When Apple started kicking butt in laptops by using sealed batteries with substantially more capacity, PC makers were locked out from doing same for years because it required battery conditioning software drivers, which MSFT didn't provide.

Commoditization took time, early PC market didn't have the direct model. And the race to the bottom in PCs isn't the fault of the manufacturers. It's an effect of the business model, and customer decisions. If a large segment paid up for better PCs and local support that model would still work, instead they predominantly choose to save a few bucks on the purchase price by buying the cheapest ones with crapware.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by 72deluxe on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @06:52PM (#14251408)
And on top of this it is still possible to buy laptops with a 1366x768 screen resolution. In 2017.

It's insane.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by belltaco on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @01:32PM (#14248511)
>they are years away from making money on their Surface line

Source?

AFAIK they made over $10 billion in revenue on Surface.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by microtherion on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:25PM (#14249715)
Outside of the startup world, "making money" generally is understood to mean PROFITS not "revenue".
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by belltaco on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @10:46PM (#14252630)
Sure, so do you or the GP have any profit numbers or even analysis to back up the claim "they're years from making any money on the Surface line" ?
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by valuearb on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @12:09AM (#14252970)
We have the history of the XBox, which took ten years to make any money, and is likely still in the red. Currently, the Surface lines volumes are too small to give MSFT the economies of scale to make gem profitable.
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by goatherders on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @08:52PM (#14252168)
Make better hardware and it's not a problem
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by mikeash on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:54PM (#14249419)
Do we care how they feel? Does MSFT care?
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by drzaiusapelord on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:07PM (#14248900)
MS has or will release a Win32 converter and a lot of devs will publish on the store as its another avenue for revenue. Also App stores are now the new lock-in. Grandma/IT director knows $app_store_productivity_app and can't leave it easily now either.

I do agree its risky, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. They're watching mobile change everything and the WIMP/x86/W32 ecosystem that has sustained them for decades needs to catch up.

That said, its inexcusable all these consumer-oriented features like Candy Crush, Cortana, cloud sourced start menu items, ads, etc are either tough or impossible to disable on the Pro version of Windows 10. MS should have geared LTSB as the 'business friendly' version of Win10 and gone bonkers on the consumer side.

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by 72deluxe on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @06:58PM (#14251453)
As I recall, this fabled Win32 converter created giant binaries? Or am I wrong?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/uwp/porting/desktop...

Regarding mobile changing everything, I am not so sure that it is. I still see people using Office over Google Docs (due to Sheets becoming sluggish with large quantities of data and years of XLS files floating around). I recall the release of ChromeOS being hailed as a threat to Microsoft in the media but in truth it hasn't dented businesses at all and I cannot ever see any business IT department even considering a switch to ChromeOS (even small businesses). The Chromebook devices look like etch-a-sketch toys compared to even cheap Windows laptops.

The ability to grab data and modify it on the go has been around since the Windows CE / Windows Mobile days. The requirements haven't changed in that time - grab a document, see it, and then attempt to edit it on a mobile device (give up, wait until you're at a normal computer - my experience anyway).

Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by jasonkostempski on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @01:11PM (#14248270)
App stores are the opposite of interchangeable. 1 slightly expensive or practically irreplaceable app, is enough to lock in a user for life. That's what MS wants a piece of.
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by dnissley on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:27PM (#14249744)
That's an advantage that's being eroded day by day. At some point they have to give up on trying to capitalize on that advantage and compete with those who have been chipping away at their market share.
Re:Introducing Surface Laptop by tonyedgecombe on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @03:40AM (#14253745)
Microsoft can see the $28 billion in revenue Apple gets from their app store and think they should be able to do the same.

Much as I dislike the idea (I make a living from selling Win32 apps) I can see why they want to do it.