News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by _wmd on Saturday April 29, 2017 @02:39PM (#14228009)
> something sane like a bank transfer

FTFY. Zero fees, zero megacorps taking their cut, zero social graphs in the US growing a few extra tuples

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by greyfox on Saturday April 29, 2017 @03:05PM (#14228157)
in the US wire transfers cost about $30 per transfer, international cost about $50.

If you're transferring to another customer in the same bank then they're free but I've never had that luxury.

Were you referring to bank transfers to same bank customers? Because I've never heard of zero fees for bank transfers

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by johncolanduoni on Saturday April 29, 2017 @03:09PM (#14228186)
They are free in some European countries. I've had friends from elsewhere who were shocked that a wire transfer wasn't free and typical in the US.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by qb45 on Saturday April 29, 2017 @04:19PM (#14228527)
Forget fees, I once tried to buy something in the US from some stranger and he refused to give me his account number and accept a wire even if I paid for everything (and the sum was big enough that PP wouldn't be cheaper). The guy literally thought I want his number for some scam. "Only PayPal, please, it's secure, blah blah blah". Talk about culture shock.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by patio11 on Saturday April 29, 2017 @04:49PM (#14228663)
It is useful to know that, in the US, if you have sufficient information to send a payment into an account you also have sufficient information to debit it. Americans are, accordingly, leery about giving out account numbers.

Americans are not historically leery about giving out checks but, fun fact, we put all the information needed to empty an account on every check.

Why? Long story; legacy systems rule the world. The industry's main defense is a) surveillance of use of accounts, b) reversing transactions which appear fraudulent, and c) aggressively prosecuting fraudsters where their identity can be readily ascertained.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by _wmd on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:59PM (#14229786)
The same is true in the UK, a direct debit instruction can be setup on an account using just the name, number and sort code, but it doesn't make us more wary, much in the same way that supplying one's home address is enough to take out lines of credit in that person's name
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by cerved on Sunday April 30, 2017 @04:25AM (#14230656)
This sounds incredibly insecure, is it exploited much?
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by stordoff on Sunday April 30, 2017 @10:12AM (#14231576)
It's difficult to exploit Direct Debits, as you are entitled to a full and immediate refund: https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/dir...
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by rmc on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @05:05AM (#14245009)
As far as I know, the ability to use direct debits is not given to everyone. You can't just start making direct debits just because you have a bank account.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:17AM (#14231014)
My guess is that it's the same as elsewhere in the EU: Your bank will reverse the charge if you ask it to, the risk stays almost entirely with the payee/the payee's bank.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by the-dude on Sunday April 30, 2017 @10:14AM (#14231589)
To do this, your business requires permission from your bank. If you abuse it, your bank will probably revoke your permission.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by mamon on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:06AM (#14230992)
>> It is useful to know that, in the US, if you have sufficient information to send a payment into an account you also have sufficient information to debit it.

Wait, what? The only thing needed to send a payment is a target account number. So, if banks in US consider that enough info to DEBIT the account then something went terribly wrong there. In Europe, to take money out of the account you need to either

- go to the bank, and show your photo ID to prove that you're you.

- login to online transaction system and prove your identity by knowing the login password and one-time SMS password.

That's why many charity institutions simply put their account number on their website and ask for donations - there's zero risk someone will debit their account.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by abeyer on Saturday April 29, 2017 @04:25PM (#14228557)
In the US, e-deposit of checks is a passable option to avoid fees.

Many banks will take a check deposit by scan or phone camera now, so you can just have someone write a paper check and send the image immediately and deposit it that way.

It's still pretty high-friction, not something you'd typically want to do with a customer, but a reasonable alternative to bank transfer if you don't want to pay the $50.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by Riseed on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:02PM (#14228725)
> In the US, e-deposit of checks is a passable option to avoid fees.

My bank (credit union) charges a $2 fee for each check I write, regardless of how or where it's deposited. Yes, it's cheaper than a bank transfer, but checks still aren't fee-free for everyone.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by loeg on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:16PM (#14228795)
Switch to another bank or CU. Most do not charge $2 checkwriting fees.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by abeyer on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:13PM (#14228780)
Weird, I knew some of the big corp banks did this for their lower tier accounts, but every credit union I've used has had free checking even on the basic no minimum balance accounts. TIL
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by loeg on Saturday April 29, 2017 @04:59PM (#14228708)
Google Wallet is significantly lower friction than writing out and mobile-depositing a check, at least in my experience.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by abeyer on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:11PM (#14228769)
Last i checked the android app refuses to run on hardware without nfc, even for the features that don't require it. Maybe it's an option if you have the right phone, or if it lets you do payments on desktop. (haven't tried the latter)
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by dragonwriter on Saturday April 29, 2017 @11:21PM (#14230014)
AFAIK, the Google Wallet app doesn't, anymore, have any features that require or use NFC (tap-and-pay did, but that moved years ago to Android Pay.)

Plus, not only can you do everything "on desktop", you can do it on web generally; the browser version works great on phones.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by abeyer on Sunday April 30, 2017 @05:53PM (#14234061)
Good to know...I thought that the classic Wallet app went away entirely, as I recall being forced to "upgrade" it to Android Pay when it came out, and in the process lost the features I actually used, so didn't pay much attention after that.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by loeg on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:15PM (#14228792)
I've only tried to use it on a real computer.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by zem on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:09PM (#14229668)
it works beautifully on desktop
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by colejohnson66 on Saturday April 29, 2017 @03:23PM (#14228239)
I've transferred money between my Union Bank and USAA accounts multiple times for free. Wire transfers will get you, but if you do a regular transfer, it's usually free
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by loeg on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:01PM (#14228715)
Banks will often let you transfer between accounts you control for free. But it usually requires pre-validating control with some random-number-of-cent deposits (which take 3 business days, because ACH sucks).

Not something you can just use to pay a stranger.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by binarycrusader on Saturday April 29, 2017 @04:37PM (#14228615)
Some banks will waive transfer fees based on your account status / type:

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/wire-transfers-what-...

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by maccard on Saturday April 29, 2017 @07:08PM (#14229273)
Uk here - I can transfer amounts under 10k in under 2 hours without any fee, to any other uk bank. If I want to send more, it's about 20 pounds, and completed in a day. I can TransferWise money anywhere in Europe (not tested the US) for far less than those prices too.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by btb on Sunday April 30, 2017 @02:56AM (#14230473)
Denmark here. November 21 2014 instant clearing 365/24/7 between danish banks via the Danish Central Bank was started. I can transfer money from bank A and have it be there on my account with bank B when I alt-tab over and refresh the browser with netbank B. Oh and its free(although a few banks have started charging a minor DKK 1 or DKK 10 fee for initiating the transfer, not mine though).
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by raarts on Saturday April 29, 2017 @08:02PM (#14229478)
Netherlands here. Same thing. Free.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by foxylad on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:58PM (#14229784)
New Zealand and Australia here - ditto.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by nnd on Saturday April 29, 2017 @07:59PM (#14229468)
What's the reason to use a wire transfer compared to ACH?
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by cynwoody on Saturday April 29, 2017 @11:10PM (#14229987)
A wire takes place in real time, whereas an ACH goes into a batch which is cleared later, like a paper check.

If you want the funds transferred instantly and with certainty, use a wire and pay the fee for the real-time service.

If not, use an ACH (cheap or free). But be aware the funds won't show up for a day or two. And possibly never, if, for example, the sender's account has insufficient funds or doesn't exist.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by loeg on Saturday April 29, 2017 @04:59PM (#14228704)
Not viable in the US, as others have pointed out.

What we've got are Google Wallet, checks, and a variety of smaller services (Venmo, etc).

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by kalefranz on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:10PM (#14228763)
Isn't Venmo now owned by PayPal?

Edit: Yes

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by loeg on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:15PM (#14228786)
I don't use it, just trying to throw out some other options so I don't look like a complete Google shill :-).
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by zem on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:11PM (#14229672)
yeah :( I've been putting off expunging it because it's still really useful, but I can also not help but think that it's only a matter of time till the make me regret using it
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by chx on Saturday April 29, 2017 @05:07PM (#14228751)
transferwise is a pretty cheap option for sending money between different countries.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by briandear on Saturday April 29, 2017 @06:41PM (#14229175)
World First and any number of money transfer companies. I am not sure why there seems to be a constant mention of Transferwise on HN. They are not even close to the only companies doing what they do. It almost feels like they monitor HN to find an opportunity to recommend it. I don't have anything against them but it is odd how they are the only company that seems to get mentioned in stories like these.
Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by chx on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:28PM (#14229721)
They might but I am just a customer here. I have an account with VBCE Online, an FX company and yet I use Transferwise most of the time because it's cheaper thanks to the use of the middle rate. This, as far as I am aware, is pretty unique. Care to show me another such service? I ran the numbers https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/4kcp28/what_is_the... here.

They are pretty clear on what it costs to send money, I spent a few seconds clicking around on World First and couldn't find the information that Transferwise has on the very opening page: if you send 1000 CAD then the receiver gets... The only thing I found on World First was "The interbank rate [...] is not our offered rate or an indication of price. Call us to find out more." Why would anyone need to call ? It's a horribly inefficient way to use my time.

Also it's really, really easy to use here in Canada where they make you log into your ebank with your credentials -- horrible security? well, that's what sofort does too -- and that's it. I never have used a simpler setup.

In other ways it is simple: when wiring money into Hungary I do not even need to bother with IBAN, local bank account numbers just work. That's how everyone banks there so no problems for the receiver to get hold of the magic numbers -- or for me to convert theirs.

So why we shouldn't recommend a system that is both ridiculously easy to use and cheaper than any alternatives at the same time? Yes, pick two out of easy, cheap and fast applies as in Transferwise is slower -- but it usually takes less than a week and SWIFT also takes a few business days and so I never really had a problem or complaint with the speed. If I had any complaints I wish it had a feature where you entered how much money the receiver gets and it calculates how much should you send.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by maccard on Saturday April 29, 2017 @07:10PM (#14229279)
I'm not affiliated with them but in my experience, they're cheap, convenient and reliable. Unlike say PayPal, or Western Union or moneygram.

I don't know of any other companies that do the same but I'll look into world first.

Re:If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, clo... by roywiggins on Saturday April 29, 2017 @07:00PM (#14229236)
They have a reputation for being cheaper, I think. Don't know if it's justified still, but I think they were noticably better at one time.