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Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by kyriakos on Saturday April 29, 2017 @08:11AM (#14226204)
Erdogan was democratically elected. He's not a dictator (even if he does act as one at this point) and judging from the referendum results, at least half of Turks seem to like his direction. It's easy to say those voters are uneducated or misguided but the fact is that this is how democracy works. Where I am going with this is that we should not blame just the leader but also the people who put him there.
Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by vinay427 on Saturday April 29, 2017 @08:56AM (#14226357)
Blaming misguided voters only has merit when freedom of the press is available and people have access to news that does not have significant pro-government bias. Turkey was ranked #155 out of #180 evaluated countries on this year's RSF list [1]. If the government controls the information that the people have access to, it is a little difficult to expect a legitimate democracy, which requires more than simply valid elections.

[1]: https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table

Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by slowmotiony on Saturday April 29, 2017 @10:40AM (#14226772)
Do the Turks in Germany also enjoy no freedoms? Because they actually support Erdogan more than Turks in Turkey.
Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by markvdb on Saturday April 29, 2017 @12:59PM (#14227475)
* Many of them identify with their (parents' or grandparents') conservative countryside roots. * A community so much oriented towards Turkey consumes a lot of Turkish (the country) and Turkish (the language) media. * Turkish country media are in Erdogan's pocket. There is not even a semblance of free press anymore in Turkey. * Turkish language media in the EU with an editorial line not pro-Erdogan have been threatened in every possible way, either directly from Turkey or indirectly. Many have ceased to exist. The best example: Zaman in .be and .nl. * Kurdish language media have always been under threat from the Turkish authorities. * The Turkish government has directly ordered the network of Turkish mosques ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Religious_Affair... ) abroad to create lists of Gülen supporters. Evidence of these practices has led to a diplomatic incident with at least Belgium. * You may also want to read about media repression inside Turkey like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Today's_Zaman . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement#2013_corru... .
Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by enraged_camel on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:23AM (#14226450)
Democracy, just like any tool, can be manipulated and corrupted to serve one's own ends. This is how tyrants come to power: they use populism and nationalism to get elected, then slowly dismantle the very institutions that make up democracy until they are the only one in charge.
Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by bad_user on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @02:09PM (#14258443)
> this is how democracy works

No, that's a common misconception.

Democracy isn't characterised only by the vote, but also by liberal values. We call it liberal democracy.

I'm from Romania btw and until 1989 we've had communism / stalinism. Guess what - we had votes then too. It was all arranged of course, party members didn't dare going against the dictators, everybody was dancing on the same music, etc.

In other words, everything is up for vote except for the liberal values that make democracy work. Without those liberal values, you don't have a democracy.

And to put this in perspective: you cannot claim that a popular vote is legit without freedom of speech, because in that case people can be coerced or manipulated by those in power, without the opposition being able to fight back at all. How many people has Erdogan imprisoned? You also cannot attest the legitimacy of the vote when you don't have separation of power in the state, because you no longer have a functioning judicial branch.

All famous autocrats in history achieved power through popular support.

But here's where it actually hurts: it's easy to vote an autocrat into power, it's hard to vote him out.

Turkey's economy will suffer, tourism is already going down the drain, other countries will slow down trade with Turkey due to political instability. Erdogan, like all populists before him, will end up pushing more and more nationalistic messages, blaming the Occident for his own fuckups, threatening with conflict because that's what populists do when they lose support.

Either way, I'm fairly confident at this point to say that Turkey is no longer a democracy.

Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by danmaz74 on Saturday April 29, 2017 @10:40AM (#14226778)
You can be democratically elected and later become a dictator. That's been the path of many dictators.
Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by usrusr on Saturday April 29, 2017 @11:07AM (#14226869)
It's not uncommon for dictators to be elected. That's how the transition from democracy to dictatorship works. But I agree with your assessment of the problem: there isn't really anything outsiders can do when an electorate tries to hurt itself. Any appeals to reason will just be catalyzed into even more votes by "them against us" rhetorics.
Re:Wikipedia blocked in Turkey by petre on Monday May 01, 2017 @02:57AM (#14236030)
Neither is Putin, yet he controls all the press. He's just an elected gang leader. Have something against the gang in power? You might just get shot on a bridge while going to work, imprisoned on account of fiscal fraud, poisoned with Polonium in your tea etc. That is how the Russian mafia works.