News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by noir-york on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:08AM (#14218176)
The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker.

He's a pilot, not an accountant or lawyer. He knows that there is pay pressure due to companies skirting regulations. That exec mgmt gets massive bonsuses while the pilots work very long hours and (probably unpaid) overtime offends one's sense of justice.

Pay has been stagnant for the vast majority of workers for decades. We should be doing something about it, not dismissing it. Capitalism is a great tool for progress, but it should not, and is not, the answer to everything. Human dignity matters.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by dx034 on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:52AM (#14218659)
I think the lack of empathy is because cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers. Both job wise (nicer to fly than to pack) and with regards to the pay.

Aviation is one of the most regulated sectors in both the US and worldwide. The reason why DHL uses subcontractors is not because they want to save money, they aren't allowed to fly in the US. Which is somehow interesting because both Fedex and UPS are allowed to conduct inter-EU flights.

Also, flying Cargo is a hard job. Passengers don't complain too much if the flight is delayed due to bad weather, the logistics companies can lose millions due to that. Pressure for cargo pilots to be on time has always been high and shifts have been long. His view is skewed because Fedex and UPS fly mostly domestically with short legs (3-4h). If you compare Southern to other global freight companies (e.g. Cargolux), conditions aren't worse. It's normal to be away from home for a week and only have stopovers somewhere in the desert or the middle of Siberia.

I somehow doubt the 23h flight story (the wording is very vague "asked to sit on a flight") since regulation for pilots is very strict.

If Southern forces a pilot to fly a 23h shift with no third pilot on board then I'm sure the FAA would be very interested in that story and it would have consequences.

My guess is that there was a third pilot on board. It then still sucks having to be in an aircraft for 23h, but he didn't have to work for 23h straight (which would've been very dangerous).

As hard as it might be for someone who dreamed of the amazing pilot job and is now flying weird shifts to unattractive cities: This is not an issue of outsourcing to get things cheaper or of paying people minimum wage for hard physical work without the chance of being represented by a union. He doesn't see his family as much as he wants but at least he's able to feed them.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by jim-jim-jim on Friday April 28, 2017 @08:13AM (#14218749)
> It then still sucks having to be in an aircraft for 23h, but he didn't have to work for 23h straight

If you're away from what you'd rather be doing at the company's discretion, you're working.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by paulmd on Friday April 28, 2017 @11:35AM (#14220256)
You might think that, but the law actually currently uses a concept called "portal-to-portal". Companies only need to pay for time that is "integral and indispensable" to the labor in question. In short if you aren't actually earning money for the company, they don't necessarily need to pay you.

It originated with mine workers who would have to take a long mine-elevator ride (30m+) to and from the vein, and companies didn't want to pay for that time. They successfully argued that the time spent riding the elevator was essentially part of your commute, just like driving to work, and they shouldn't have to pay for it.

Lately it's also been applied to things like Amazon warehouse workers, who need to stand in line for up to 30 minutes to go through a metal detector and be frisked on their way out of the warehouse. That time is legally allowed to be unpaid.

In short - even if the work is in some sense "necessary" as a condition of your employment (you would be fired if you didn't wait through Amazon's frisk line), if it's not actually a primary part of the job (the thing they are paying you to do) then they don't have to pay you for it.

The FAA may mandate downtime, but that's not part of worker safety per-se. Consider if the pilot were taking that downtime on the ground - you obviously wouldn't be paying them to do that. Nor would you pay a long-haul trucker taking their downtime.

The company could argue that the "portal" in this sense is the cockpit door (rather than the door of the plane), and that being trapped in the plane during your off-duty time is just an unpleasant aspect of the job (like a miner being trapped in a mine elevator during some of their off-hours). You're perfectly free to watch a DVD or whatever [0] so you're not really on-duty.

This is a pretty shitty thing in labor law overall, but as a descriptive statement - that's how things are right now. If the wheels aren't turning, you ain't earning.

Or at least if you're earning it's through the grace of your employer, not because they're legally obligated to.

[0] Interestingly enough, the FAA doesn't actually mandate sleep during off-hours. Which is a big problem since many pilots are paid so poorly nowadays - they end up flipping burgers to make ends meet, instead of getting the sleep they need. It's caused several crashes so far.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by toomuchtodo on Friday April 28, 2017 @12:23PM (#14220748)
Just because the current legal framework supports wage theft does not make it right. We can do better.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by cmurf on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:16PM (#14223591)
This concept still exists, even applies to tech workers. http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/11/08/judge-dismisses-ap...
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Dylan16807 on Friday April 28, 2017 @12:03PM (#14220520)
Yes, you're working, but being paid to sit/sleep before being paid to do your shift sounds like a good way to clear half a 40 hour workweek in a single day.

Unless they didn't pay or he wasn't able to relax in that time, which he should have mentioned in the article.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by dx034 on Friday April 28, 2017 @08:23AM (#14218802)
Yes but flying 23h straight sounds like the pilot could easily fall asleep which could've extreme consequences. In this case it just means that he's away from his family.

I know one long-haul pilot personally and he still enjoys those long trips. Yes you're away from the family and might fly to the city you don't like for the 5th time this month, but you still get to see a lot, have a prestigious job and nice views from the cockpit.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by vijayr on Friday April 28, 2017 @09:12AM (#14219060)
cargo pilots flying for Amazon still have it much better than warehouse workers.

That maybe so, but it isn't right to say "suck it up, there are others who have it worse". Both groups are treated badly and both groups deserve empathy

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by throwaway2048 on Friday April 28, 2017 @11:58AM (#14220476)
Its easy to be smug about it when you are making $150k in a software development job however...
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by cmurf on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:08PM (#14223534)
How does the FAA get involved in regulating flights that originate and end outside the U.S.? The author states "I have been asked to sit on 14-hour flights from the UW to the Middle East, only to then fly the same aircraft to Asia on another nine-hour journey"

That means ferrying the pilots as passengers to location; at which point they become pilots for the next leg. It's still shit. It's bad ergonomically, it's very dehydrating, and you're getting a higher dose of cosmic rays. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aircrew/cosmicionizingradia...

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by specialist on Friday April 28, 2017 @10:08AM (#14219473)
There have been many first hand accounts from pilots about their industry's deteriorating work conditions. The denial and pedantry by the Freedom Market™ zealots is exhausting.

Being highly trained and performing safety critical work does not exempt pilots from the predation of C (executive management) level exploitation.

The root cause is the glut of labor, progressively reducing Labor's bargaining power, since the 70s.

What is the fix?

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Retric on Friday April 28, 2017 @10:31AM (#14219635)
Better tax policy could do a lot.

Our regressive tax policy is currently funneling economic growth to an ever smaller pool of people who simply don't need as many people to work for them (directly + indirectly). If the lower/middle class kept more of their paycheck they would spend more on services which would employ more people.

Further, the economic death spiral of fewer people with disposable income => reduced demand => fewer people with disposable income => ... can be avoided.

PS: Remember, we are fairly close to 'full' employment so it does not take much to shift the balance one way or another.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by cmurf on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:41PM (#14223749)
The silent generation taxed themselves massively compared to the baby boomers. They had next to no national debt, and massive private and public infrastructure being built.

Today's wealthy and politically connected baby boomers cannot be bothered at all with this. They demand low taxes, stuffing the stock market with the bounty rather than starting or expanding businesses, and then charge the national credit card with all the costs of their unwillingness to contribute anything meaningful. Except maybe some halfway decent music - but that does not give them a pass for being greedy, stingy, hoarders.

At the moderate to low end of the pay scale, even 0% taxes fails to mitigate the wage stagnation problem. This really only gets fixed when the cost of hoarding becomes really fucking expensive. So expensive it's saner to take the risk on starting or growing a business, and the ensuing tax deductions that come with that (those are generally 100% tax deductible expenses by the way, with exceptions for gifts and entertainment).

Right now we don't have that. It's hoarding and credit charging time. And this bullshit tax cut proposal is even more of that.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by specialist on Friday April 28, 2017 @10:56AM (#14219846)
Agree. I support any measure that keeps money moving. Including cashectomies for windfall profits.

But why, in the name of fairness, isn't the surplus shared with all the stakeholders?

We wouldn't be in this pickle to begin with if profit sharing was the norm. Like when I was kid.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by cmurf on Friday April 28, 2017 @11:28PM (#14224886)
Sharing is socialism/communism/someother"bad"ism these days. It must be all about the invisible hand, the less intervention the better. Basically I see it as a bunch of greedy nuts who believe in things like low taxes, and only wince at overt things like primogeniture and unequal pay but then they pretty much do a "tee hee" and accept both because they benefit.

It's somewhere in the vicinity of neo-feudalism + neo-aristocracy + prosperity theology. It's an abomination.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by dikdik on Friday April 28, 2017 @02:56PM (#14222069)
How about a movement that says, "If you can't earn a decent wage working 40 hours a week, sit under a bridge until you die for your country."

Reducing the labor pool and showing the elites they can build their own roads, make their own coffee, and fly their own planes unless they allow all citizens to live with dignity after a 40 hour work week.

I believe their is much more virtue in doing this than going to war to make the elites richer. We should celebrate those that opt out of exploitation even more so than "war heroes."

I know this will never happen, but it's nice to day dream.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by specialist on Friday April 28, 2017 @11:14PM (#14224841)
I'm hearing you.

The part that slays me is we have so much useful work that needs doing, excess capital for want of high quality investments, and people demanding purposeful jobs.

The opportunities are insurmountable.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Spooky23 on Friday April 28, 2017 @11:17AM (#14220054)
Been there, done that.

You need labor laws with teeth.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by ygaf on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:04AM (#14218411)
There is substance in the article, but the author is insulting and cliched right at the start (the worst place - for him). If HN says nothing, we're agreeing to that stuff in the first paragraph.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by 300bps on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:51AM (#14218349)
I found the wording of that one example strange:

For example, my colleagues and I have been asked to sit on 14-hour flights from the UW to the Middle East, only to then fly the same aircraft to Asia on another nine-hour journey.

It isn't clear he was actually piloting the aircraft for these flights, especially the first one where he says he was "asked to sit on". Unless "asked to sit on" is an industry euphemism for piloting, it seems like a carefully worded statement meant to deceive.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by dx034 on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:54AM (#14218663)
Same here. I think he wasn't involved and it was actually 3 or even 4 pilots on board. Otherwise it would be against regulation. You probably sleep better in a hotel than in the crew compartment on the plane, but he didn't work for 23h without a break and neither did his colleagues.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Dylan16807 on Friday April 28, 2017 @12:25PM (#14220761)
> The lack of empathy in the comments is disconcerting. The post is a bit light on details (though the example given of flying 23 hours back-to-back continental flights is terrible if regular) the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker.

The majority of the criticism is very legitimate, because the article does a terrible job of actually naming any problems beyond saying "it's bad now". Don't mischaracterize all those posts just so you can step in and be the voice of reason.

> Pay has been stagnant for the vast majority of workers for decades. We should be doing something about it, not dismissing it.

We should be doing something about it! But pay is barely mentioned in the article, and even that seems to be about the short-term effects of competition rather than decades-long pay stagnancy.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by sqeezy on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:26AM (#14218240)
He is blaming a foreign company which is hiring his own comapny for failures his company is not adressing. Sorry stupid article. I´s not DHL´s fault that Southern Airline is not able to compete and to organize. Btw in Germany there are Unions for that. https://www.vcockpit.de/en.html
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by noir-york on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:34AM (#14218282)
So because he's laying the blame at the wrong door then he, and so many others in his predicament, don't deserve empathy?

The man is a pilot not a political anorak/economist/pundit. It would be more helpful to point out where the blame lies: lobbying, party/campaign financing, unfair trade agreements etc.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by jim-jim-jim on Friday April 28, 2017 @08:21AM (#14218785)
I suppose Nike is also not to blame for taking advantage of the dire labor situation in places like Vietnam.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Spooky23 on Friday April 28, 2017 @12:21PM (#14220726)
That's a copout. This bullshit is unacceptable and shouldn't be allowed.

The big companies are pushing down the gruntwork to these companies and setting performance standards that require unfair or otherwise unreasonable labor practices. DHL and Amazon know full well what their procurement standards mean. The contractor just exists to push accountability out.

You see the same thing in the auto industry... there was a Bloomberg article a few months ago about this topic. Honda runs well-administrated, safe factories in Alabama. The supplier a mile down the road gets some crazy SLA for delivering parts that results in cut corners. (http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/markets/inside-alabamas-auto-...)

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by pyvpx on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:25AM (#14218513)
is it hiring when they are the largest equity stakeholder as well as own and lease the planes back to the company?

how, exactly, do you propose this "independent" company supposed to address these "failures"?

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Pica_soO on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:15AM (#14218456)
Thats a falacy right there- if a outer system integrates a inner system, any flaw of that integration resides upon the component in direct control of the world (the outter system). If you ingest arsenic, and your liver is unable to discard it- its not the livers fault- its the outter system who decided to put the inner system under impossible strain, thats at fault.

And democracy includes the rights to call upon government to hinder capitalism from destroying the citizens. Like it or not. If you disrespect that part of freedom, you are not a true democrat.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by cmurf on Friday April 28, 2017 @05:37PM (#14223271)
I think CEO pay is what it is because they're narcissistic personalities who are very good coddling the fragile emotional state of board of directors, and they all make each other feel important and useful.

The only solution I see is a syndicalism, or perhaps participatory economics (one of those is real, has existed, the other is an idea possibly with no potential in the real world). Basically the only thing people understand is go fuck yourself. Let's face it. It's a might makes right world. People don't negotiate win win if they can negotiate I win you lose and that's a win, so go fuck yourself. It's always adversarial when a single entity owns both capital and means of production.

But the very idea of worker unions brings about the open question of committing murder by certain capitalists. It's that much of a threat to their ability to say and get away with, go fuck yourself.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by coldtea on Friday April 28, 2017 @10:43AM (#14219741)
>the post deserves better than: 1. Pilots fly for fun. You made the wrong career move. 2. Capitalism! 3. you're lucky - imagine if you were a warehouse worker.

Maybe if those same commenters lost their relatives or kids in an accident with a commercial pilot that was forced to fly to exhaustion, they'd answer with better sense.

Bonus points if they lost them because a cargo plane fell on them...

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by Pica_soO on Friday April 28, 2017 @08:05AM (#14218708)
If empathy was a job requirement, half of us would be stoned and the other part would be on his way to the server-center with a truck full of TNT.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by throwaway91111 on Friday April 28, 2017 @06:21AM (#14218224)
Ehh, i mean for how much longer do we actually need pilots? I was under the impression they're mostly auto pilot these days anyway.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by bb611 on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:54AM (#14218662)
While they're punching a hole in the air, yes. Takeoff & landing in most modern commercial aircraft have some auto-throttle/auto-braking assistance, but those are still generally flown by hand on every flight. Note that the cargo airlines this article addresses are primarily working with a much older fleet of airplanes that the major passenger airlines got rid of, so their tech generally lags behind what you see on the flight deck of your travel flights.

No one has yet implemented a real point-to-point autopilot, and there are none in the pipeline for certification. It's possible there are engineers working on them, especially at Boeing/Airbus, but given airframe lifetimes at the major commercial carriers pilots are here for at least another 20 years with them, and probably 30-40 years at cargo carriers.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by brianwawok on Friday April 28, 2017 @08:41AM (#14218902)
Isn't it also low hanging fruit?

My napkin math says truck drivers are a MUCH higher % of ground shipping cost compared to airline pilot and flying cost.

Airlines have a lot of staff costs, but those would seem like it would be maintenance and ground crew which is even harder to automate.

Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by chx on Friday April 28, 2017 @10:35AM (#14219670)
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by throwaway91111 on Friday April 28, 2017 @03:03PM (#14222131)
Seems like a truly unbiased source.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by chx on Saturday April 29, 2017 @09:29PM (#14229728)
Tell me, whom we should ask about whether automated planes are going to be viable in the near future if not a pilot?
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by dexterdog on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:00AM (#14218393)
They still have to be alert and ready to take over during the flight.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by crusso on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:27AM (#14218520)
Not all of them at the same time. It depends upon how many pilots are on the flight; but observing while auto-pilot is engaged only takes one person. The other people can relax, nap, read, etc.
Re:DHL pilot alleges poor labor practices that are spreading... by ue_ on Friday April 28, 2017 @07:10AM (#14218437)
>Capitalism is a great tool for progress, but it should not, and is not, the answer to everything.

Nor should it be considered the final or best possible form of human organisation, I should add. Marx's comcept of alienation is quite relevant to your point.