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Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:04PM (#14208118)
What happens when Spotify emails its customers saying "sorry we can't provide service to Verizon customers anymore, they charge us too much"

Some may stay and downgrade their service as they don't require as much bandwidth and some may leave Verizon entirely. It's not all roses for them.

Then Comcast, AT&T, Google or anyone else frankly begins offering "True unlimited full access internet" and eats Verizon's breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Meanwhile someone creates a VPN service to get around the blockade.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by natoliniak on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:48PM (#14208309)
> "True unlimited full access internet" and eats Verizon's breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I would agree with you only if everyone had a choice of that many providers, which is not the case! In my current neighborhood in Boston I have a whopping selection of either America's favorite company Comcast (with bandwidth caps and horrible outdated infrastructure and service) or Verizon DSL (max ~3Mbs down on a good day and only when it doesn't rain). In my previous neighborhood it was only Comcast as it was too far from Verizon's DSL switch. Neither one of those companies have any incentive to improve their networks. Zero. They have a comfortable duopoly and killing net neutrality will only reaffirm their horrible exploitative positions and allow them to start turning the internet into something reminiscent of cable TV, which is their ultimate goal: full control over content providers.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by awalton on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:03PM (#14208869)
> Then Comcast, AT&T, Google or anyone else frankly begins offering "True unlimited full access internet" and eats Verizon's breakfast, lunch and dinner.

You seem to be intentionally forgetting that these ISPs have segregated themselves such that they do not have to compete with one another. In most of the US, you get one choice of fast internet (Verizon or Comcast or Time Warner) and one choice of slow internet (whatever DSL you can find) - you may not even get satellite or dial up anymore.

So, when Verizon says "Screw you Google and Netflix and Spotify", their customers don't go "hey Comcast/AT&T/Google, c'mere", they say "how much do I have to pay you to make the pain stop... for now..." (The customers of all of these horrible ISPs have been screaming the "hey [other ISP] come to my area" line for literally decades, but the ISPs don't listen because they have either agreed explicitly or implicitly not to push into one another's turf to maximize everyone's profits.)

This is why we need net neutrality. If the market was competitive, it'd be a different story altogether. But it is provably not (hell, they've used the fact the markets are not competitive to try to convince the FTC to allow them to merge with other ISPs because "it would not reduce overall competition, since they do not compete in such-and-such markets"), and despite the government drowning AT&T and its many children with hundreds of billions of dollars over the past few decades to build high speed networks for everyone, they still organized their networks in such a way to maintain monopoly powers (albeit in smaller, more fragmented markets).

ISPs in America do as little as possible, collecting the biggest check as possible, and use the massive profits to squeeze competitors out (like they have successfully done with Google giving up the ghost of expanding even in Mountain View California where they are headquartered and as they are scaling up to do to municipalities creating their own networks like Chattanooga). They're consistently rated as the worst businesses in America, but they are infrastructure, so we pay them anyway. And now they're learning that more profits exist in content than it does in carrying the content fairly, so they want to be the source of the content too. And that means killing net neutrality to making themselves the sole arbiters of the market.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @04:55AM (#14210127)
I have Verizon(fiber), Comcast(coax) and AT&T(copper) where I live. Not to mention satellite and 4G internet options.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @05:57AM (#14210350)
Congratulations! You're an outlier.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @08:24AM (#14210912)
Then use a VPN? Or is the idea they will charge high rates for all traffic (already legal by the way) thus preventing access to the majority of the internet?
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @09:34AM (#14211321)
The idea is that, in the majority of markets where a single ISP has an effective monopoly, that ISP can do what it damn well please within the limit of enforceable law and regulation, and there's not a whole lot that can be done to prevent it.

The idea is further that, not only does it make pragmatic sense for so favorably positioned an ISP to act aggressively in defense of that position, but such ISPs have been observed to do so, as for example with AT&T's successful defeat of the recent municipal broadband expansion bill in Tennessee. AT&T's position is that taxpayer money should not be used to fund competition with private industry, which all sounds very fine and upstanding, except that the private industry has already stifled any possibility of competition by means of the sort of monopolistic activity which US governments spent much of the early 20th century working to restrict, in order to prevent the unsavory outcomes that such activity has been observed to produce in direct proportion to the degree in which it's successfully pursued.

So, sure, they can charge high rates for traffic if they want, in addition to charging more or less whatever rates they please simply to provision backhaul in the first place. They can impose a $20/month, or higher, charge for reliable access to video streamed from services other than those they themselves run. They can do whatever they're able to get away with - and in an environment of permissive and favorable legislation and no effective private competition, they get away with a hell of a lot.

In case it matters, I'm really not progressive, and I understand business reasonably well - I've been in private industry my entire career, with no one doing me any favors, and if I didn't have at least a generally accurate idea of how things work, I wouldn't be able to support myself. In particular, I find the current attitude held by the federal, and many state, governments, toward small business enterprises, absurd and execrable - and I've seen the onerous burden such an attitude inflicts on people who go into business for themselves. But the current attitude toward large business is a whole 'nother matter entirely, and I see nothing of value to our polity as a whole in the results of such gross permissiveness. Expanding such permissiveness still further strikes me as very much the wrong thing to do.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @09:46AM (#14211398)
The thing is everyone has mobile phones for the most part. If a local ISP makes cost of doing business for Netflix so high that Netflix no longer offers that service at a reasonable price. Many consumers will either scale back their connection or cancel it entirely.

"What's the point of paying $100 a month for Facebook and Instagram? I get that on my phone anyway! I don't want Verizon's $100 a month TV plan, I want house of cards."

As the ISP mostly has sunk costs and slim margins if even 5% of its user base leaves in a certain market that will render them insolvent or force them to raise prices, causing more departures, and higher prices still...

The point is while they don't always have direct competition they do have a decent amount of elasticity of demand.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @10:13AM (#14211578)
Everyone has mobile phones, but not that many people have unlimited data and a high enough data rate to handle household streaming demands - usually you only get one or the other, and even "unlimited" usually hits a cap after a while. I don't think the elastic is as stretchy as you seem to be suggesting it is.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @10:18AM (#14211610)
I understand they don't have unlimited data, but if they can't stream Netflix (insert your preferred service here) anyway what's the point of keeping the wireline internet service? Five gigs a month is a lot of Facebook/Snapchat and Instagram. Either way they won't have access to the content they want. Why not save a few dollars or move those dollars towards mobile data? Sure they can go to the ISP's media service but those are priced at the cable model for the most part and not really competitive, I don't know anyone under 40 that has cable service anymore. If you used to pay $15 for 4K high quality original content and now you are offered $60 a month for often low quality content with commercials would you take that deal? I'd pass.

A big cost for ISP's is customer acquisition, even if they change back their policies it will be years, maybe decades to recover. I think if an ISP did this on any large scale it would be suicide.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @10:27AM (#14211667)
Under a lot of data plans, it'd still be cheaper for a moderate to heavy streaming video user to pay Comcast the vig it wants, than to pay wireless data rates for the same bandwidth.

I guarantee you Comcast has made the same calculation, too, down to the fractional cent. Whatever vig they charge, if they do, will be scaled accordingly.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @10:31AM (#14211700)
The customer isn't paying the "vig" it's the distributor, If Netflix isn't profitable on Comcast's network Netflix will simply stop offering service to Comcast customers. They will have no other option, thus might opt out entirely as they go from moderate or heavy streaming users to not streaming at all.

Also keep in mind they would still be subject to anti-trust regulation, they really can only take it so far before getting broken up again.

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @12:06PM (#14212552)
And Netflix raises subscription rates to make up for the added cost. The customer still pays the vig.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @02:35PM (#14213725)
To: AllComcastCustomers

From: [email protected]

Subject: Comcast is increasing the monthly cost of Nextflix

"Dear Valued Customer,

Here at Netflix we endeavor to offer the highest value for your entertainment dollar, it is with that in mind we regret to inform you that due to sweeping and punitive fee increases brought on at the sole discretion of Comcast we will be forced to raise our prices 425% next billing cycle. Customers of other ISP's will enjoy the same low price that we have always offered, in fact we are offering our service at our cost to Comcast customers at this new rate. Please contact Comcast customer service at 1-800-Comcast if you would like this issue resolved as it is out of our hands.

Have a great day"

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @04:01PM (#14214244)
At which point Comcast probably sues Netflix for anticompetitive practices.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @09:54PM (#14216358)
"It was the shortest civil defence in the history of law. No experts. No witnesses. He simply stood up and proclaimed 'Pot, kettle, black, the defense rests.' ""
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by outsidetheparty on Thursday April 27, 2017 @10:38AM (#14211781)
> If Netflix isn't profitable on Comcast's network Netflix will simply stop offering service to Comcast customers.

So... just to make sure I'm following, this is the outcome you're arguing in favor of?

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @12:04PM (#14212532)
I'm arguing against the "sky is falling" hysteria that many seem to have about this. If you'll review the rest of the context of that quote you'll see why it's in Comcast's best interest to allow Netflix to do business with it's customers.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by throwanem on Thursday April 27, 2017 @12:35PM (#14212812)
I don't believe I am expressing any kind of "sky is falling" hysteria. It's not as though the concept of monopoly, or the reasons why it's something to discourage, should be tremendously controversial in this day and age.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by ascagnel_ on Thursday April 27, 2017 @08:59AM (#14211084)
VPNs hide the destination of your traffic, they effectively cannot hide from your ISP that you're connecting to said VPN. ISPs would likely throttle most VPN in this instance, because what would stop them?
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @09:30AM (#14211292)
Something like obfsproxy[0] or a straight up http proxy wrapped in SSL and a VPN service that acquires and rotates new IP addresses regularly would prevent this. It would be an expensive game of wack a mole for the ISPs at least, personally I'd just set up a digital ocean droplet for my traffic. Less technical users can employ Streisand[1].

[0]https://community.openvpn.net/openvpn/wiki/TrafficObfuscatio... [1]https://github.com/jlund/streisand

Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by outsidetheparty on Thursday April 27, 2017 @10:40AM (#14211801)
For that reason, the algorithm wouldn't be "throttle specific services", it'd be "throttle everything except for the specific services that we own or that have paid us the toll."
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by cmdrfred on Thursday April 27, 2017 @01:23PM (#14213197)
So essentially throttle 99% of the internet? Comcast already doesn't throttle it's cable or phone service and doesn't include it in your bandwidth. Why would anyone buy a larger bandwidth package than the throttle rate? So they can pay their bill faster?
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by ascagnel_ on Thursday April 27, 2017 @02:35PM (#14213727)
Not necessarily. They could whack-a-mole the services to such a degree that they become non-viable commercially.
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by yoshamano on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:41PM (#14208284)
Re:The FCC plan to undo its net neutrality rules by aeze on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:07PM (#14208887)
Unfortunately in many places, there isn't real competition.