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Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by phs318u on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:31AM (#14145454)
Direct quote from the first subject:

"I got used to living in an unstable situation and figured somehow it would work out"

That last bit is illusory thinking.

Also, I'd beg to differ on your suggestion that these people aren't choosing their life every single day. I'd suggest the opposite is true for most of us (leaving aside those who through incapacity have diminished options). Every single day you don't make an effort to look for work, don't volunteer for something, don't organise an activity, don't spend some time learning something, don't go somewhere to meet people, don't go on a date - you are making a choice. Living with your parents and (more importantly) living off your parents well into your fifties is not an accident. You can't accidentally do that. That is directly the result of daily choices and illusory thinking.

And while we can agreee that the term "parasite" is pejorative, I find it is deserved- at least from the perspective of the parent (who in this case is probably as much to blame for this situation).

My daughters are 20 and 18 and the expectation has long been set in our family that they will be moving out once they're in stable employment (and by that I mean any job that can pay their bills, not their dream job). When both kids are out of the house, we'll downsize and share some of the cashed out equity to help them get started on the property ladder. Then they're on their own. In our family we refer to this as "The Plan". They've been hearing about the Plan (and been onboard) since their early teens.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by iphonethrowaway on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:53AM (#14145514)
And accumulate crippling debt in order to live life according to the prosperous fantasy that you happen to grow up in?

Japan is about 20 years ahead of current US/EU monetary policy. This is coming to America and it's not an accident and it's not people getting lazy and stupid. Things have gotten more expensive, more unequal and more competitive. And at least Japan has strong safety nets, America doesn't.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by phs318u on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:07AM (#14147115)
Why are you assuming my kids will have crippling debt? What if they are happy to start off life in a simple one bed apartment of which our contribution will be roughly 80% of the cost? My parents started their life together in a small flat and ended up in a 3 bed home which growing up we thought was huge. My girls' expectations are not unrealistic. They don't expect to move out of the family home and into a huge home with a pool.

I never said people were lazy or stupid nor did I imply it. However to claim as some are, that people don't have choices in life is just plain wrong. You might not like the choices you have available but you've got them. And you're free to choose your path from among them.

Don't get me wrong and conflate what I'm saying with some kind political ideology. All I'm saying is that people are faced with personal choices and need to own their choices and the consequences of their choices.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by falcolas on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @09:24AM (#14147495)
> Why are you assuming my kids will have crippling debt?

Not the OP, but do they expect to go to college? Do you plan to cover their college costs?

If the answers are yes and no, they will come away with anywhere from $20,000 to $200,000 in student loan debts. I'm not sure how it could be more crippling...

You may have set the expectation that they will go out and live on their own, but were one of them to come to the point of becoming homeless (whatever the cause), would you let that happen to them? If one developed a crippling disease which didn't let them work a full time job, but also didn't kill them outright, what would you do then?

Intentions are great, but reality tends to kick intentions to the curb.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by pm90 on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:33PM (#14149054)
There are ways to do college cheaply. A peer mentioned scholarships if you come from an economically disadvantageous background. But there is always the Community College option. I think that is often overlooked because parents want their kids to enjoy the same "college lifestyle" that they themselves had, but it might be financially more prudent for them to start CC and then transfer to a better college later.

Having a manageable student debt is undoubtedly more important than the "college experience" IMO. College is really really important for the education; if you make the most of it and obtain the skills to make money, you ensure a much more sustainable and enjoyable quality of life.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by phs318u on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:50PM (#14152121)
In Australia where I live, the student loans are not as great and are paid via a government interest free loan that is repaid as an additional "tax" once your salary exceeds a certain threshold. This is another reason I'm thankful we're not in the US.

With respect to disease and circumstances truly beyond their control then we will do whatever is necessary at that time. However they are exceptional circumstances.

With respect to homelessness my response will be measured against their attempts to exit those circumstances (irrespective of how they got there). So if they are addicted to a substance (for example) then if they are actively trying to shake that addiction (or showing a true willingness to) then I will help them do so.

My view of parenting is that our goal should always be to try and raise resilient, independent kids. It is not to provide an infinite bank for those that aren't interested in owning their own lives.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by cmahler7 on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:15PM (#14148877)
there's things called scholarships, worked well for me and lots of other people.

The problem is that easy student loans has made it so people who should have never gone to college are now going and flunking out after a few semesters of partying and now have 10s of thousands in debt with nothing to show for it.

Combine easy money with indoctrination telling kids that they will be losers if they don't go and you have the current situation

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by falcolas on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:24PM (#14148961)
Scholarships are hard to get when you're a white male with perfectly good (but not exceptional) grades. A bit easier when you're a woman, since they have more scholarships earmarked for you.

Most people won't have scholorships, or at least not enough scholorships to cover their entire tuition.

> telling kids that they will be losers if they don't go

It's worse than "mere" peer pressure. A 4 year college education is all-but-required for entry level white collar jobs anymore. A college degree is this century's High School Diploma.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by cmahler7 on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:54PM (#14149263)
Not really, only 1/3rd of millennials have degrees.

Meanwhile there are tons of trade jobs that don't get filled because there's a stigma against it.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by falcolas on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:06PM (#14149409)
> because there's a stigma against it.

And they frequently paid really low wages, since they're expected to be filled by immigrants, both legal and illegal. $10 an hour seasonally to pick onions? $15 an hour for a professional welder? Those are near-poverty level wages.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by icefox on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:23PM (#14149626)
If you will give them 80% of the cost they will choose something bigger than they should. Checkout the book the millionaire next door for some stories about parents that would subsidies their children and how it turned out.
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by phs318u on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:46PM (#14153086)
If they choose unwisely they will have to live with the consequences of their choices. That's the whole point.
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by stock_toaster on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:03AM (#14145546)
One major differnce is that, from what I understand, land/housing in Japan has historically been generationally owned (very long mortgages, such as 100 years, paid off after multiple generations). That is generally quite rare in the US (not sure about EU).
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @12:49AM (#14145496)
>>> ... they will be moving out once they're in stable employment.

Have you met any 20-somethings in stable employment? Unless your daughters are supermodels or have PHDs in biotech they are in for at least a decade of contract work and constant job-hunting. Even those at their dream jobs know they stand on the knife's edge. And the property ladder, the average home price in my area is over 500k and closer to 1m if you want to be in driving distance of any "stable" job. Even with the 20% down payment only top earners even qualify for a loan. I hope you are ready to co-sign their mortgages.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by eximius on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:10AM (#14145572)
I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after graduation with a bachelors degree in math. I bought a house less than a year later (granted, with an FHA loan and less than the traditional 20% down).

Most of my friends in a major field of engineering or computer science are just fine as well (IT-degrees and almost comp sci degrees don't fair as well).

The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that demand for STEM +CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by RandomOpinion on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:13AM (#14146469)
> I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after graduation with a bachelors degree in math. ... The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that demand for STEM + CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings.

That means you weren't around for the dot-com bust in 2001 or so. Yes, things are good right now but the situation can go south very suddenly and with very little warning and stay bad for several years.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by eximius on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:31PM (#14151986)
I work at a finance company so I'm not too worried.

EDIT: In hindsight, I see the irony of that statement. But I also know we don't get involved with the sort of schenanigans that hurt firms in the last crisis.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by closeparen on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @02:11AM (#14145826)
We're getting paid high dollar amounts while Silicon Valley is in boom, but the fact that they're contingent on appearing daily in Bay Area offices means the long-term stability of home ownership is off the table for us. And with booms come busts: many of us work for companies that hemorrhage investor cash.

Even if your present employer is stable, it seems likely that tens of thousands of us will be competing with you for your next job, and bidding down its wages.

In making high-dollar salaries, we're doing better than most, but don't confuse $150k Senior Engineer positions for 25-year-olds at 5-year-old companies with long-term stability.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by dicey_pv on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:36PM (#14149789)
Similar situation here. I'm a 20-something with a Bachelors in MIS. I make $80,000 in the Dallas area, and consider myself stable.

I also took out a sizable chunk of student loan debt for my degree, and have paid it off already, so now I'm debt-free and employed. Nearly every one of my friends and peers are in a similar boat. No apocalypse here, yet.

I also grew up in a non-nuclear family with a single mother and 2 siblings.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by iphonethrowaway on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:28AM (#14145654)
Just curious, did you have a stable upbringing, two parents and did you and your friends belong to the middle class?
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by eximius on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @05:32PM (#14151995)
Yes. Not sure what precisely defines middle class, we might have been at the upper end of it. Private schools, we lived overseas for a while.
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by sanderjd on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:04AM (#14145547)
Where do you live? I know 20-somethings with stable jobs. Housing is expensive, but with good credit, it isn't hard to get a pretty big mortgage, even with much less than 20% down. I'm usually sympathetic to this sort of argument - I do think it's quite a bit harder for young people to get started than it was in the fairly recent past, but your comment seems hyperbolic.
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by sandworm101 on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:20AM (#14145624)
Canada - Average house price in the country just hit 550k, and that includes all the stuff in the VAST country. Within the cities, the only places for young people to find jobs, prices are closer to 1mil.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crea-march-figures-1.4073540

For a 400k loan, with 100k down, a Canadian bank will want to see an income of at least 80k/year before taxes. That number (80k) puts one in the top 10% of earners. So to buy the average house (500k) one must be in the top 10% of earners. To buy the average house in a city you better earn closer to 180k, putting you well into the top 1% of earners. So for the vast majority of young people home ownership isn't a reasonable option even in the long term.

Anyone can play around with the numbers here: https://tools.td.com/mortgage-affordability-calculator/

The example I always return to is the military. An officer in a nation's military should be able to buy a house and have a family in a degree of comfort. That was my grandfather. Today, officers rent apartments in full knowledge that home ownership will never happen so long as they remain officers. An RCAF pilot, an elite officer in any military, earns between 75 and 100k. With a young family and perhaps a student loan, that fighter pilot won't ever own a house. It is worse for naval officers, who generally need to live near cities/ports.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by e15ctr0n on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @03:34AM (#14146116)
As many as 78% of adults in the Toronto area are still living with their parents, a trend "driven more by high house prices and an increasingly unstable job market for young adults".

Toronto’s Housing Boom Refills Empty Nests, Driving Prices Even Higher | March 12, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/world/canada/torontos-hou...

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by douche on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:11AM (#14145580)
Yes. Myself, my sister, her boyfriend, and my girlfriend.

Granted, we're smart folks, who could finish a bachelors in four years, and got degrees in subjects that lead to well-paying careers. We also chose to live in a part of the country that isn't stupid expensive.

If you're a first-time home owner, you can get an FHA mortgage, which has a low down payment and low interest rates.

Real estate inflation is a problem, but if you live outside of the ridiculous areas, that million dollar house is only 100k-250k. Which is entirely feasible on an engineer or developer salary in those same areas.

I don't make half of what I could make in SV or NY, in gross terms, but for where I am, I'm very comfortable.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by gluggymug on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:33AM (#14145674)
How long have you had your current job?

Median tenure is falling I believe. And employees in their mid-twenties and thirties have way lower tenure than those in their fifties. I think it's about 3 years as opposed to 10 years. Job-hunting is much more prevalent.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by douche on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:39AM (#14145694)
Five and a half years, actually, and no plans on going anywhere. Working for a small, stable, lifestyle business does have some perks.
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by phs318u on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:15AM (#14147147)
Where I live, our family home is currently worth about 7x the price of the cheapest one bed apartment in the same area. I expect to be able to help them out to the tune of 80% to 100% of the cheapest one bed apartment. If they want to borrow a bit more to get something nicer and they're able to do so then good for them. But that's their choice.

With respect to jobs, I totally agree that the definition of "stable" has changed from my parents' era to my children's. And we are lucky we don't live in the US. Our social services, while not what they were, are still ahead of your. But if you can start life without a huge debt, then that is the best way we can help them, and in those circumstances "stability" can be defined more flexibly.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by closeparen on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:45AM (#14145720)
It may be true that, with more effort, a specific unemployed and unmatched person could beat the other candidates for a good job, or the other suitors for a romantic partner.

But that doesn't mean that the population of unemployed and unmatched people can shrink. Only that it can churn.

Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by fjdlwlv on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @01:41AM (#14145710)
What possible benefit is there to sell a property just to buy another? That just burns transaction costs, and forcing people to live alone harm's mental health and is economically inefficient. Your Plan is built on prejudice not logic.
Re:Some 4.5M Japanese aged between 35 and 54 are living with... by phs318u on Wednesday April 19, 2017 @08:20AM (#14147179)
My house is worth 7x. If I sell to by a 2 bed bungalow for 3x, I can give my kids 1x each for a 1 bed apartment. Buy a 1 bed apartment to rent out and still have some travelling money. I'm in my 50s and expect to enact the plan before I'm 60. At that point, my wife and I don't need to be rattling around in a huge home. By moving into something smaller we can help our kids in what we believe is the best way possible - by avoiding starting life with a huge debt. I don't want them to be wage slaves for the rest of their lives.

Also, I have no idea what you mean by my idea being based on prejudice. Prejudice against what, who?