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Re:Drinking While Jurying by John23832 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:32PM (#14140909)
A judge/jury should never involve empathy for the victim, imo. Empathy for the victim should be baked into sentencing guidelines. Though I guess you could say the same about the perp.

Eh... don't practice any empathy. Practice rationality and common sense.

Re:Drinking While Jurying by allengeorge on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:42PM (#14142200)
Oh - of course. Which reminds me of this quote by Anatole France:

"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread"

Re:Drinking While Jurying by logfromblammo on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:51PM (#14141104)
That pushes the burden of having empathy for anyone onto the legislature writing the laws. And they decide for all cases, independent of potentially mitigating factors.

As I personally believe that a legislature is a juicy target for sociopaths seeking power and impunity, and therefore likely to demonstrate less empathy than the general population, I'd rather leave the cold rationality for writing the laws, and the empathy for interpreting them in a just manner.

Practice rationality in determining the facts of the case. Practice empathy in deciding whether to convict or acquit, and in the sentencing for the convicted.

Cold rationality is how Jean Valjean gets 20 years in the galleys for stealing bread.

Re:Drinking While Jurying by jdmichal on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:47PM (#14141671)
> And they decide for all cases, independent of potentially mitigating factors.

That's why most laws have a wide band of potential punishments.

> I'd rather leave the cold rationality for writing the laws, and the empathy for interpreting them in a just manner.

It's typically a single person -- the judge -- who will select the punishment from the band of permissible punishments. So now we're taking a theoretical group decision made across a wide swath of society, and laying it down on a single person... This is already done to a large extent, except that the judge has minimum and maximum punishments to work between.

> Practice empathy in deciding whether to convict or acquit...

This has huge implications on rule-of-law. I'll just link to another thread where I argued against a very similar viewpoint:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11503910#11504703

> There's a myriad of reasons why this is a bad thing for society. For example, white supremacy groups not being arrested or charged with crimes because all the cops and DAs and judges are also white supremacists. If it's truly within their world-view that a lynching is not wrong, then according to your theory it's their responsibility to not arrest or charge for it. This viewpoint is directly opposed to the rule of law.

(I removed the first sentence from my quote, since I was properly corrected on it down-thread.)

Re:Drinking While Jurying by John23832 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:03PM (#14141244)
>That pushes the burden of having empathy for anyone onto the legislature writing the laws. And they decide for all cases, independent of potentially mitigating factors.

The legislature is supposed to be burdened with this. Empathy for the people living with us is the reason why we all left the wild and came together in the first place.

> Practice rationality in determining the facts of the case. Practice empathy in deciding whether to convict or acquit, and in the sentencing for the convicted.

I think I disagree. Once we've come to the facts of the case, with the proper (empathetic) laws, it just becomes a matter of execution (no pun intended).

>Cold rationality is how Jean Valjean gets 20 years in the galleys for stealing bread.

Don't think what you're saying is falling on deaf ears. I definitely get it. I'm a black man in the US. I know what strict mandatory minimums and culturally deaf laws do to people. However, I think that if we fix the laws, the rest shakes out.

Re:Drinking While Jurying by manarth on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:15PM (#14141969)

  Empathy for the people living with us is the reason why we all left the wild
Archaeological records indicate empathy amongst neanderthals [1]. It's been with us a while.

[1] http://www.evoanth.net/2012/04/26/caring-neanderthals/

Re:Drinking While Jurying by John23832 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:36PM (#14142152)
I hope you understand that's what I meant. We're not just running around as individuals, we formed groups and society because of empathy. Neanderthals weren't loners.
Re:Drinking While Jurying by bingomad123 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:11PM (#14141926)
I totally agree here. The whole point of having a jury picked from society is to ensure that the justice process passed some kind of "rrasonable person"test. American legislators and prosecutors are resembling cold blooded sociopaths each passing decade passing laws that destroy families and lives and stealing money from ordinary citizens (civil forfeiture). In such scenario I think Jury's role is very important.

Given that USA jails a hell lot of people (per capita) compared to any developed nation and large number of them are about drug offenses or victimless crimes I would rather have a linient jurors than harsh ones.

Re:Drinking While Jurying by rhizome on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:37PM (#14140962)
don't practice any empathy

Seriously? At the very least I hope you're only narrowly applying this to the jury system, but even then...

Re:Drinking While Jurying by gnicholas on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:02PM (#14141226)
I don't particularly agree with him, but Yale psychology professor Paul Bloom wrote a book called Against Empathy [1].

I think his definition of empathy is narrower than what many people think of when they think of empathy, so in some ways his argument struck me as a battle against a straw man. But TBH I haven't read the whole book (just coverage of it, and some of his related work).

There's a counterpoint here [2].

1: http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/12/paul-bloom-makes-a-weir...

2: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/good-thinking/201310/wh...

Re:Drinking While Jurying by John23832 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:39PM (#14140976)
I know on the surface it sounds bad, but yea.

And yes, this applies solely to the situation I gave.

Re:Drinking While Jurying by rhizome on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:51PM (#14141103)
I know on the surface it sounds bad, but yea.

What is the depth that makes it sound good?

Re:Drinking While Jurying by goo on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:02PM (#14141234)
I know how excited we all are to board the moral outrage train, but there's an actual answer to that: http://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/1/19/14266230/empathy-...
Re:Drinking While Jurying by John23832 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:57PM (#14141182)
Because people often think that acting rationally and empathetically are two distinct actions, and that's not the case.

For example, someone gets caught with some crumbs of weed. You could make the empathetic argument for fining that person rather than jail time because, "They're not hurting anyone. It's just a little weed.", so on and so forth. Or you could make the logical/rational argument that the punishment and what stems from it (housing a person in jail, the economic aspects of ruining this person's life for what really is a victimless crime) does not fit the crime.

Re:Drinking While Jurying by rhizome on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @06:45PM (#14143716)
Shorter: "logic is not the same as truth."

Mundane corollary: "You can make a case for anything."