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Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by leroy_masochist on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:08PM (#14126458)
I don't think the authors understand the term "command and control" as it is traditionally used. I'd infer from this article that they believe it means, "provide overly detailed instructions, then micromanage". In fact it's a military term of art describing how to manage large teams in a chaotic environment in which leaders never have all the information they'd like (e.g., combat).

The "command" part is leaders telling the people who work for them what end state they need them to achieve -- not only at the outset of the mission, but periodically throughout operations as the situation changes.

The "control" part is subordinate units/leaders providing real-time feedback. This might be something like, "we are carrying out the mission as planned" or it might be, "hey you told me to stay on the north side of the river but I need to cross it to accomplish the mission"; importantly, deviation from coordinating instructions in accomplishing the mission is a key feature of the mission orders-based warfighting doctrine currently in place in most major militaries.

In the words of US doctrine (which uses the common abbreviation for command and control): > C2 is not a one-way, top-down process that imposes control on subordinates. C2 is multidirectional, with feedback influencing commanders from below, from above, and laterally.[0]

0: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/f...

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by shouldbworking on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:41PM (#14126360)
This sounds great and all, but I've seen corporate rebels and how often they get fired. The most dangerous thing you can do at most companies is to disagree with your boss and be right. I was a rebel myself until I realized the risks.

The safe path to promotion is sucking up to the level of management right above your manager. Always show up early, look nice and busy, and make sure you're always presenting at meetings.

The true rebels will be seen contracting or running their own businesses. Or defeated and working in the dark corners of the corporate world just waiting for the day they can escape, real or imagined.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by iamacynic on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:02PM (#14126680)
oftentimes in companies, a consultant will be brought in to create controlled rebellion - a consultant is basically a mercenary who will operate at the direction of one of the bosses inside the company, and the results of the consulting or research/development efforts can be discussed in terms of political strategy as well as actual results.

of course, the trade-off for being a consultant is that you're very well compensated but can be fired for any reason, or no reason at all, without any of the legal protections afforded an employee. this is a business model for management consulting firms but i've seen plenty of smaller outfits or individuals do this as well.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by dasil003 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:15PM (#14126272)
Being a startup guy I come from the opposite side: one of the biggest challenges I've faced in growing startups is alignment. When you're 5 people in a room you can just kind of shout out what you're doing and everything is cool. When you get to 50 this leads to a lot of redundant effort and toe-stepping. If the culture is not evolved by 500 there's very little strategic direction at all.

I agree about the engagement part, but given that I've always worked in places where people were highly engaged, the next challenge is how to direct that engagement towards a common vision and purpose with efficient execution.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by mr_tristan on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:39PM (#14126347)
Yeah, leading 500 is a pretty different animal then 50. New hires are probably not going to expect to be "changing the course" and more focused on stepping in and keeping it. Turns of phrase from the leadership can frequently bewilder people unintentionally.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by fiatjaf on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:44PM (#14126369)
Why do you have to go past the 50? Or even past the 5 people in the room?

Isn't it just better to keep companies small? Maybe have/work on multiple companies, have companies interact better with other ones so they can accomplish more, but keep them smaller.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by jasode on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:21PM (#14126505)
>Maybe have/work on multiple companies, have companies interact better with other ones so they can accomplish more,

Ronald Coase[1] explains why an integrated large company can be more productive and efficient than interacting individuals (or interacting small companies). Basically, internal transactions (departments) cost less than external transactions (contracts).

E.g. there is no way for Apple to sell an iPhone for $500 or Amazon AWS to offer EC2 compute for 1 penny per hour if those 100,000+ employees were split up into thousands of smaller 5-person companies.

It seems reasonable that many entrepreneurs have ideas that require more than 5 people to execute.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_the_Firm

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by bediger4000 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:39PM (#14126581)
Basically, internal transactions (departments) cost less than external transactions (contracts).

It occurs to me that if we believe this, the USA as a country could make our entire economy more productive by making contracts less expensive. 5 seconds thought leads me to believe that "less expensive" might have a number of things involved, from simpler legal language that doesn't require a lawyer to understand, to a legal system that isn't set up to benefit lawyers, to less intellectual property restrictions, to a less adversarial legal system. Clearly much of this is impossible to implement.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by daveguy on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:09PM (#14126711)
It's not the cost of the contracts themselves that are so expensive it's the overhead of profit taking by the recipients of each contract. When you hire a contractor you avoid taking on capital expense and internal complexity overhead, but you are generally going to pay 15% or more above what it would cost you to do it in house. You accept this tradeoff with the understanding that people you contract with have to make some profit too. When you are small the complexity overhead can easily draw you off course. Month to month and on demand contracts can be paused rather easily to adjust to cash flows.

It's not the cost of drawing up the contract that adds a significant part of the cost. The contract work itself that adds overhead.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by fiatjaf on Sunday April 16, 2017 @04:45PM (#14127410)
> You accept this tradeoff with the understanding that people you contract with have to make some profit too.

Of course not. You accept the tradeoff because it is in your interest to abstract away risks. Part of the costs involved in this risk taking comes from how the contracts are set up.

For example, your employee doesn't have an actual contractual obligation to fulfill such and such goals every month, while an external contracted firm may have.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by daveguy on Sunday April 16, 2017 @05:05PM (#14127506)
Ok. It is still not the contract that is the major cost.

I didn't say the tradeoff is that other people make profit. The tradeoff is the overhead cost. Sure, that can be another tradeoff -- obliged fulfillment. Either way you're paying the contractee a little more for that.

It's not the contract itself (the legal expense) that is the major cost in a contract. Yes it is some overhead, but is it really a significant part compared to the excess you are paying to have it contracted vs in house?

The point is. It's still going to cost you more, even if the legal cost is zero.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by fiatjaf on Sunday April 16, 2017 @03:40PM (#14127137)
How costly were contracts 2000 years ago? Read again, I suggested that companies start getting better interactions with others, that means innovation on contracts to make them more viable than hiring a new employee.

I wasn't trying to say that it is viable to do EVERYTHING with a 5-people company. I was trying to say it is viable to do a lot, and that it is maybe possible to make it more viable to do more.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by unabridged on Sunday April 16, 2017 @03:11PM (#14127012)
I agree with you for companies that require physical presence. But services like Amazon AWS allows you to effectively contract 1000s of employees. A company like Netflix could be ran by 5 people.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by brudgers on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:00PM (#14126419)
In the connotation of 'startup' used in Silicon Valley and among venture capitalists (as opposed to how 'startup' is used in other places and/or by other types of investors), a startup is a company designed and striving to grow to a large size. In that context, startups are a well defined subset of new businesses.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by nine_k on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:00PM (#14126422)
Imagine having 5 important, large-scale customers. You need a dedicated representative per such customer. You suddenly don't have people for doing development.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by fiatjaf on Sunday April 16, 2017 @03:36PM (#14127118)
Imagine you don't want to have 5 important, large-scale customers, since your company only has 5 people?

Imagine there are no companies with the need for dedicated representatives, since they are 5-people companies also.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by douche on Sunday April 16, 2017 @04:02PM (#14127227)
Imagine trying to keep the lights on, without those large-scale, price insensitive customers that pay 100x what the smaller customers pay, for approximately the same amount of hassle as any other individual customer.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by fiatjaf on Sunday April 16, 2017 @04:46PM (#14127414)
I get your point, you're saying that large customers are good for your pockets. Ok, go ahead, take your profit, but accept that this is totally off the point of this thread.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by nine_k on Sunday April 16, 2017 @07:09PM (#14128088)
Ever heard of economies of scale? If you like the fact that you can buy computer chips, or clothes, or meat, for their current price and not 100x more, it's because the companies making them operate at huge scales; it takes more than 5 people.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by wtbob on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:35PM (#14126554)
> Isn't it just better to keep companies small?

That depends on what you're trying to achieve: the bigger the goal you're striving for, the more people you'll need for it. Yes, technology is an amazing lever, but it's not infinitely long: 5 people aren't going to make the next smartphone, electric car or rocket.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by fiatjaf on Sunday April 16, 2017 @03:37PM (#14127123)
How many companies are building rockets?
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by billmalarky on Sunday April 16, 2017 @03:10PM (#14127008)
Organizations also benefit from economies of scale.

Generally small companies move faster and can innovate much faster, large companies can bring those innovations to massive scale. This is why you often see the model of large companies acquiring small companies then scaling the business (think Facebook and Instagram).

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by blizkreeg on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:39PM (#14126346)
I've been thinking of and recently started working on this exact problem most companies that cross the 40-50 person mark face.

Can we get coffee sometime? I'd love to exchange thoughts and ideas and just learn your perspective as well. I'm in SF (moving to Oakland soon - looked up your twitter).

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by 11thEarlOfMar on Sunday April 16, 2017 @10:51AM (#14125995)
Struggling with this one a bit.

"The outcome of Gallup’s study clearly shows the strong correlation between employee engagement and business performance. "

Good, the author says it's a correlation.

But the supporting graphic is titled:

"Employee engagement affects key business outcomes"

Which implies causality.

I can easily image a company that runs through early success, growth and profitability and the sense of prestige that would bring to the employees. Absenteeism, accidents, defects could be low because employees are engaged: They are winning in the market, everyone's getting bonuses, their acquaintances say, 'oh, wow!' when they mention where they are working.

Then, turn that company down, with the same employees, and you'd have the opposite effect. A scandal such as a LendingClub, Uber, Theranos, that changes the fortune suddenly, over night, with the same employee base, and I'd not be surprised if absenteeism, accidents and defects surged.

In that scenario, it's business performance affecting employee engagement.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by candiodari on Sunday April 16, 2017 @11:04AM (#14126036)
The bottom of the article, and About - Team tells you all you need to know.

"If you’re interested to learn more about how to reach The Promised Land, don’t hesitate to contact us for an inspiring talk, rebellious workshop, or practical support during your organization’s transformation."

These are management consultants. Their statistics are about as good as those from psychologists, except they are usually directly paid for getting particular outcomes with their statistics.

In this case, their case is that there is a major problem in every organisation ! And they can help ! For $xxxxx they'll "solve this problem" (with a one-time talk about it, in case you were wondering), and for $xxxxxx they'll give a workshop, which will surely allow any manager to prove to his director how engaged he is, while (hardly worth mentioning, really) also allowing him to go home earlier for a whole week and probably get a free, really fancy, dinner or two.

Keep this in mind when judging the value of what they're saying. Of course, I do think they have a point, but they're part of the problem, not the solution.

There was a survey I read which asked the question "would you prevent your employer from gaining a million dollar in profit if you personally got $500 out of it ?". Apparently 86% would, and a further 10% was undecided.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by TuringNYC on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:15PM (#14126271)
I good example of Management Consulting efficacy is the observation on how some well-respected consultancies have been failing businesses. DiamondCluster and A.T. Kearney would be at the top of the list, though dated examples from my consulting days. If they offer such good strategy, why is their company doing so poorly?

I once asked some outright, they explained that they are so busy helping clients they don't have any time to help themselves.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by douche on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:59PM (#14126415)
Perhaps, to paraphrase the old chestnut, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, consult."
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by sgt101 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:31PM (#14126820)
Being a good consultant (helpful to clients) != being a successful consultant (getting more contracts)

Successful consultants are parasites, they are like that fungus that takes over ants, forcing them to climb into the sun, before exploding them all over the field.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by brianwawok on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:05PM (#14126235)
> There was a survey I read which asked the question "would you prevent your employer from gaining a million dollar in profit if you personally got $500 out of it ?". Apparently 86% would, and a further 10% was undecided.

Hah citation?

I wonder what that survey would look like with a strong profit sharing setup?

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by mattzito on Sunday April 16, 2017 @10:57AM (#14126016)
I share some of your concerns about the article, though the one quibble I'd have:

> In that scenario, it's business performance affecting employee engagement.

All of the examples that you gave aren't really business performance, they all represent some combination of fraud or terrible behavior. Sure, it could be fraud hiding negative business results, but the fundamental issues in all of those are managerial misbehavior.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by 11thEarlOfMar on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:12PM (#14126729)
You are correct. I was looking for a stark contrast in business performance that would be assured of having the same employee base. I think it is still true in companies where the business has run its course and sales are declining over time that the business performance can reduce engagement. The more time that passes, the more employee turnover and it's therefore less direct in causation.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by jt2190 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @11:26AM (#14126105)
I'm curious if the European context of corporate "command and control" differs from the North American one. (edit: The authors are European. edit 2: I've heard anecdotes that European labor laws make management more "strict" with workers.) I also wonder if the profession and industry make a huge difference.

In my limited experience in North America as a software developer, there has been little "command and control", and far more "chaos", i.e. the businesses didn't seem to have any kind of control over their software development, and would tolerate a surprisingly low amount of predictability. This was almost always because non-technical types were in charge. (edit: Non-technical types often view software management as intractable, and tend to utilize vague approaches like "we'll ship something on this date".)

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by baursak on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:38PM (#14126345)
Lack of "employee engagement" is not a new insight by far. It's just that implications of what it takes to address the root cause of it go down quite a deep rabbit hole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by alphonsegaston on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:38PM (#14126343)
Companies like Toyota have long understood that a more democratic workplace leads to better outcomes overall. But the reality is, barring a major cultural change or wide-scale labor organization, this kind of management system will never take hold in America.

We're a fundamentally authoritarian society who organizes all our systems like their mini-fiefdoms. I've never understood why a society that prides itself so much on its tradition of democracy would build within itself an economy of autocratic rulers, but I guess these kind of contradictions are as much a part of our culture as anything else.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by jlarocco on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:20PM (#14126504)
I don't know if I agree that employee engagement is a great thing to optimize. I feel like engagement is a side effect of wanting to get work done.

If I focus and engage and double my productivity, I don't get to spend half as much time at work, instead I get twice as much work. If I double my productivity and double my amount of work, I'm still not going to double my salary or double my PTO or anything like that.

Not to mention that most corporations have no problem whatsoever laying people off when it'll save them enough money. "Sorry you dedicated 80 hours a week and weekends to this project, but the economy's bad so we're canceling it and laying off your division. Oh, and BTW if you try to work on something similar after we lay you off, we'll sue you. Bye."

I think many people have realized at this point that corporations have very little respect for their employees and that spending significant mental energy being super engaged and efficient has mostly negative consequences (at most companies).

I bet a company could improve productivity quite a bit if they let employees take the rest of the week off once they finished the week's work. But that would require management to have an understanding of the work being done and to plan well, so it won't happen.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by sgt101 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:45PM (#14126885)
The engagement meme is a nightmare.

1) Measure engagement - surveys, more surveys. Targets for managers of the surveyed, dismissal, removal of bonus. Survey manipulated, rendered political tool. Lieing all round. Disaster.

2) Targeting of dissent. "we've finished debating, now we're executing" "boss, there's a brick wall" "you're fired" "oh" "bang" "oh". Anyone who disagrees or complains about some aspect of central function in anyway it immediately branded disengaged and targetted for removal.

Here's a rule. No one can practices management consulting unless they have worked at a fortune 500 for 30 years.

Here's another one. No one can have a chair at a business school unless they've worked in the C suite of a fortune 500 for 30 years.

This would cut this rubbish right out.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by sobinator on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:19PM (#14126284)
I agree with the sentiment, but let's be honest with ourselves; there aren't that many type-A people bumping around in most organizations whose talents are going untapped.

Regardless,

Engagement, in my view, is like a double-edged sword--it cuts both ways. On one hand, getting employees to "pull the wagon" can immensely add value to the organization. On the other hand, employees attaching too much of their self-worth to their work (a consequence of being highly engaged) can lead to employees' egos being of greater importance than the results.

Low engagement is probably just a symptom of some other organizational ill.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by bediger4000 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:42PM (#14126597)
I'm going to suggest that in my experience with both smaller and larger companies, management (from those managing grunts to C-level) have more of what they consider fun in a low-engagement company, and the low employee engagement is a symptom of management having their version of fun.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by Animats on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:32PM (#14126824)
The graph showing that companies rated highly by Glassdoor outperform the S&P 500 by a factor of 2.4 is significant. Is there a fund which invests that way? Vanguard should have a Glassdoor Index Fund.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by tjalfi on Sunday April 16, 2017 @05:05PM (#14127509)
The Parnassus Endeavour fund (https://www.parnassus.com/parnassus-mutual-funds/endeavor/in...) is partially based on employee satisfaction.

Here is an excerpt from an interview [0] with the portfolio manager.

John Rotonti: How do you define a high-quality business?

Jerome Dodson: Parnassus Investments defines high-quality companies as those with competitive advantages, quality management, and responsible business practices. I believe a high-quality workplace is one of the indicators of company quality. That's why the Endeavor Fund, which was originally named the Workplace Fund, focuses on investing in good workplaces.

[0] (https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/12/19/interview-with-jer...)

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by justin66 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:34PM (#14126833)
With that kind of money at stake, you could expect the integrity of Glassdoor reviews to tank pretty quickly.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by isostatic on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:28PM (#14126318)
We should just use Shift and Option
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by twic on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:58PM (#14126413)
Shift yourself to a new job where you get options!

Or if you can't find an opportunity like that, some kind of meta escape?

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by mnm1 on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:58PM (#14126951)
What a fluff piece. It makes no points whatsoever, just pretends like it can make janitorial, secretarial, and waitering work fun and exciting but doesn't offer a single idea on how they plan to do so (because it's impossible). Talk about delusional! This reads like an ad because it is. No content whatsoever.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by microtherion on Sunday April 16, 2017 @05:32PM (#14127646)
"Organizations like Kodak, Blackberry, Motorola, Lehman Brothers and Enron are but a few of the many companies that became overly comfortable and lost their battle."

This can be argued for the first three of these, but Lehman and especially Enron were slaughtered by the relentless pursuit of (financial) innovation and absence of effective control.

Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by known on Sunday April 16, 2017 @01:04PM (#14126436)
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by Asooka on Sunday April 16, 2017 @12:32PM (#14126326)
How about lowering CEO pay by about 90% and distributing that to employees, i.e. paying a fair wage adjusted for gains in productivity?
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by bskap on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:07PM (#14126698)
If you lowered the CEO of McDonalds's pay by 90% and distributed it to all the employees, they'd get less than $20 each. It doesn't exactly bump them up to a living wage.
Re:The Command-And-Control Mindset Is Killing Companies by trhway on Sunday April 16, 2017 @02:22PM (#14126775)
sounds like the companies who get your soul in addition to your brain do better.