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Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by oakwhiz on Friday April 14, 2017 @12:37PM (#14115434)
I wonder if machine learning will lead to worsening of the echo-chamber problem.

"Error: The message cannot be sent because it does not conform to accepted groupthink."

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by AndrewKemendo on Friday April 14, 2017 @12:52PM (#14115517)
Anytime someone has a scary thought about ML it all comes down to control problems - eg. the machine having the final say about what happens without human being able to override it.

In gmail now, if you say "attached" in your email but don't attach something, you can still send the message, it just gives you a warning. You're consistently shown improved interfaces and content because of ML, yet those aren't scary and you don't feel out of control.

I think people have seen way too many scary movies about AI, and it's tainted our whole discipline.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Danihan on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:22PM (#14115710)
Look at red lights as an example. Those are just primitive robots. Yet, when I'm sitting at an empty intersection at night, even though I have excellent, advanced sensors in my eyes, I'm not allowed to just run a red light.

Red lights aren't just a "helpful warning." The robots already have the final say in that arena, because human law (for now) backs them up.

It's not based on scary movies... primitive robots already force me to waste my time on a nightly basis.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Bartweiss on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:30PM (#14116593)
> Red lights aren't just a "helpful warning."

The town where I grew up has a red light which only changes when a weight sensor is tripped. But weight sensors are expensive, and the approaching two-lane road only has a sensor in one lane. Worse, it's calibrated for cars, so motorcycles never trip it.

Yes, only. If you ride up late at night on a motorcycle, you have a choice between committing a serious traffic offense and waiting several hours for the light to change. No, this problem isn't ever going to be addressed.

I think it's damned reasonable to be scared of what we'll get when people hand authority to machines. Not for Terminator reasons, but for simple bureaucratic stupidity.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by mortehu on Friday April 14, 2017 @11:07PM (#14119131)
Are you sure it's a weight sensor? It's usually an inductive loop[1], which detects metal. They're usually supposed to detect motorcycles, but are sometimes incorrectly calibrated. I've been able to trigger most troublesome detectors by tilting my motorcycle while on top of it.

Some people also put magnets in their boots[2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop

2. http://www.instructables.com/id/Traffic-Light-Trigger-for-yo...

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @11:00AM (#14139357)
Oh, interesting! I didn't realize that, but thinking back on how it looked, it probably is induction. Didn't know motorcyclists had tricks for that.

Shame they only put the loop in one of two lanes, though...

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by mikestew on Saturday April 15, 2017 @11:21AM (#14121092)
If you ride up late at night on a motorcycle, you have a choice between committing a serious traffic offense and waiting several hours for the light to change. No, this problem isn't ever going to be addressed.

It's probably already addressed: run the light. Check the regulations of your local jurisdiction, but it very likely that the light is treated as "broken", and you are allowed to proceed after verifying that the intersection is clear. Yes, I've tested this IRL.

If it's an intersection you deal with regularly, call the local DOT, tell them about it and they'll come recalibrate the sensor. Yup, tested that IRL, too. Buddy of mine said that in his case they met him at the intersection so they make sure his bike worked when they were done.

And, BTW, it's not a weight sensor but an induction loop. Meaning that turning the bike off and restarting it can trip the light. Something something electricity through the starter windings.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by joe_the_user on Friday April 14, 2017 @07:28PM (#14118236)
It's worth noting that in this situation, corner-case problem gets worse the smarter the (mechanical) robot becomes.

We've already seen how poorly designed test-data and training combinations can result neural nets that behave in a racist fashion. More broadly, neural nets have been enlisted in quests like find insurance risks or security risks and here they could really bad effects if they get veto power.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by ThrustVectoring on Friday April 14, 2017 @04:24PM (#14117004)
Does your local jurisdiction allow right turns on red? It'd be legal to turn right and pull U-turns until you get to the direction you want to go.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Bartweiss on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @11:02AM (#14139369)
Sadly it's a T-junction, with the two lane approach (the broken one) lacking a right turn. Definitely a good trick for most broken lights, though.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by nebabyte on Friday April 14, 2017 @05:17PM (#14117479)
> If you ride up late at night on a motorcycle, you have a choice between committing a serious traffic offense and waiting several hours for the light to change

Uhh, or

(A) Back up, pull over your motorcycle, walk the crosswalk(s) as a pedestrian with a 'bike', get on motorcycle on the side of the road you want to go on, continue; or

(B) Make a right turn + U-turn as many times as needed to reach the desired turn? (3-way intersections can pose a problem, but the through road is most likely defaulting to green and if not you can pull over...)

If your municipality still treated either of the above as a 'serious traffic violation' yet still not springing for better sensors that likely exist for more mainstream compatibility then you're just living with idiots at that point (or they just don't like motorcycles :P)

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by tyingq on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:43PM (#14115842)
Gmail does this already. Try and attach a Windows exe to an email. I have valid reasons to want to do that, but have to find workarounds.

It seems happy with uploading the same file to Google drive and putting a link in the email. Though that doesn't solve my use case of sharing with Chinese Nationals who are blocked from those urls. I'm also not clear on how/why this is somehow more secure.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by danieltillett on Friday April 14, 2017 @06:59PM (#14118055)
Can't you zip up the .exe in an encrypted form and send the password? This is better anyway since even if gmail let the .exe go out the spam filter at the other end is likely to strip the .exe anyway.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by ComputerGuru on Friday April 14, 2017 @07:22PM (#14118193)
Nope. Zip archives do not password protect the index. This trick used to work, but not any more.

RAR files used to get through, but now Gmail detects them as well. I think even 7z.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by tyingq on Friday April 14, 2017 @08:08PM (#14118476)
They've gotten very clever about workarounds.

See: http://imgur.com/a/y4Lxz

Tried tar, gzip, even uuencode. Then taking "exe" out of the file name with the uuencoded version.

Edit: Shell archive works! apt-get install sharutils;shar file.exe > file.exe.shar

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by danieltillett on Saturday April 15, 2017 @03:28AM (#14119772)
Very nice to know - I wonder how long this workaround will last.

Have you tried the -mhe option in 7zip?

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by taberiand on Saturday April 15, 2017 @12:08AM (#14119340)
Now to just get the recipient to use your chosen format...
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by danieltillett on Saturday April 15, 2017 @03:26AM (#14119766)
Just email them sharutils for windows [1] :)

1.http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/sharutils.htm

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by tyingq on Saturday April 15, 2017 @01:05AM (#14119484)
Shell archive is self extracting, though not on the desired OS :)
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by primitivesuave on Friday April 14, 2017 @02:14PM (#14116030)
Brilliant example! Though it seems more an example of humans giving a robot the final say, rather than a robot earning the final say based on the merit of its predictions.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by cortesoft on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:42PM (#14115832)
You absolutely can run the red light, it would just be against the law. That has nothing to do with robots.

We have been making laws that limit what we can do for millennia.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Danihan on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:53PM (#14115900)
The law has everything to do with robots and how they will integrate with society, like it or not.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by cortesoft on Friday April 14, 2017 @02:35PM (#14116199)
Right, which is exactly my point.... the law is the thing to worry about, not the robots.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by zepto on Friday April 14, 2017 @06:29PM (#14117916)
Why not both?
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by __jal on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:20PM (#14116512)
Right. It is just like explosives. There is no problem leaving agents of rapid chemical reaction lying around where kids may find them, it is the kids.

This also has nothing to do with robots.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by _iao on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:14PM (#14116460)
Law is literally enforced group-think
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by nebabyte on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:24PM (#14116537)
That's a terrible example. He's talking about control and overrides; in that context, a red light is a literal counterexample of your point.

You can violate systems with overrides, and doing so might have consequences, but that's distinct from systems you can't override which was kemendo's point on our fear of where the control lies. (If tomorrow we decide to swap the meaning of red and green, that control is still humans'; the lights won't do anything about it.)

A self-driving car that locks up if you try and run a red would be an example, but as you didn't say that I'm guessing you just missed the point.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Danihan on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:32PM (#14116607)
A driver cannot control nor override a light -- they can't make it change quickly colors when an intersection is obviously empty. They can only ignore it entirely. That's different.

You wouldn't be "overriding" killer robots by hiding in underground tunnels. You'd just be avoiding them entirely.

My main argument though is that people's distrust comes from extrapolation of negative real life experiences, not just from the world of fiction.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by nebabyte on Friday April 14, 2017 @05:07PM (#14117382)
> A driver cannot control nor override a light

You can rewire it or shoot it with a gun. It has no physical control over your actions.

That is the actual sense of the word "control" in a humans-vs-robots debate.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by AndrewKemendo on Friday April 14, 2017 @04:14PM (#14116923)
That's not the machine though, that's the inflexibility of the human legal process. It's more than possible technologically to manage that exact problem (and is implemented elsewhere): sensors to detect a car and turn light or blinking yellows after a certain time of day.

So it's not the machines, it's humans ceding power to them voluntarily.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by bauerd on Saturday April 15, 2017 @07:48AM (#14120385)
>The robots already have the final say in that arena, because human law (for now) backs them up.

But traffic lights don't "have a say", they're put up and have their mechanics defined by humans. Neither does electronic time recording have a say on how many hours of work are required for an employee to get a paycheck.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by scandox on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:46PM (#14115860)
Great example. I'm delighted that the robots have the final say on this. Long may they override your advanced sensors.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by nebabyte on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:20PM (#14116515)
> now

The problem is that

- taking away that control is just one parameter, one preset, one configuration setting away

- We don't exactly have the best track record for consistently picking people we can trust not to fuck with those configuration settings for their own ends

> I think people have seen way too many scary movies about AI, and it's tainted our whole discipline.

I think people have been burned too many times by their 'authorities who know better', and fortunately at least now have a sense of where the slippery slopes are (if not exactly how best to navigate them).

I'd pick erring on the side of caution over sliding down one of those cliffs any day. If you think it's such an impairment to progress, feel free to live in a non-paranoid place; but if "it's only paranoia when someone's not trying to break it for their own gain", as far as I'm concerned it's rarely-to-never going to be 'just paranoia'.

(With that said, this particular post isn't too scary, and just reduces to the "control your hardware" problem. That, and 'control your networks' are the big ones for now.)

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by dmreedy on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:45PM (#14115853)
So, I disagree a little. The first-order problem is one of control, as you describe. The second-order problem is one of comfort with control, and the normalization that that entails. Once you accept a certain piece of automation, you tend accept its failures alongside its successes. To continue on from the GP, it is entirely likely that an error message along the lines of "your phrasing does not conform to polite societal norms" (to avoid the term 'groupthink') adds one extra layer of friction between an intention and an act. This can be a good thing (your google example), but it's not universally a good thing, because of possible conditioning effects that can have subtle and long-lasting implications.

I agree that it's not scary in the "Skynet is going to take over" sense. Much rather in the "They Live" sense, though even without the bare malicious intents there.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by Bartweiss on Friday April 14, 2017 @03:37PM (#14116643)
> I think people have seen way too many scary movies about AI, and it's tainted our whole discipline.

I think this is ridiculously unfair. My concerns about policies like this have nothing at all to do with strong AI. We don't need scary movies to see examples of software decisions made with no access to human overrides.

A simple and extremely topical example: years ago, my Google account somehow got screwed up. It decided I was 13, and never aged. Six years after I made it, I was still 13.

It turned out there was no way to fix that. If you were under 13, they would close your account for ToS violation. Then, after closure, you could fax proof of age and get your account fixed. But if your account was listed at 13, forever? No such luck. There was no way whatsoever to fix the problem. No phone number, and (as with all Google problems) lengthy support forum threads amounting to "deal with it".

I have no idea how this happened. But it was completely irreparable, until one day the bug got fixed and my age was right. That's the stuff I worry about - simple rules being applied absolutely, with no recourse to human judgement.

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by LeifCarrotson on Friday April 14, 2017 @02:56PM (#14116342)
https://www.xkcd.com/251/

> Cueball: Hey. Hey! Stop retracting my CD!

> I feel uncomfortable when my computer physically struggles with me. Sure, I can overpower it now, but it feels like a few short steps from here to the robot war.

Another step towards this war is the Bluetooth connection in my wife's car. As a passenger, I cannot connect my phone to play music, directions, or make calls unless the car is in park, because "This function is not available while moving". And I hate it. We don't want to sit and wait to set off while its 8-year-old Bluetooth hardware pairs, we want to get going and let the navigator do the navigating.

Fortunately, this contrasts with the Waze navigation app's message box which actually detects motion using the GPS, and displays "Typing is disabled while driving - OK / Passenger"

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by mseebach on Saturday April 15, 2017 @06:18AM (#14120146)
Groupthink is mostly a problem because it happens subconsciously. A group that actively wants its members to think a specific way has always had other means.

When you're (as the leadership of an organisation) actively installing a filter, I think you'd be quite more likely to install the filter that would say "Error: The message cannot be sent because it merely reinforces the majority viewpoint and does not add new information to the conversation."

Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by golergka on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:16PM (#14115655)
Sorry, your content was removed because we determined that it was linked to fake news content and/or was deemed to offensive for some members of our platform.
Re:DeepBreath: Preventing angry emails with machine learning by cmdrfred on Friday April 14, 2017 @01:30PM (#14115746)