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Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by AndyMcConachie on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:18AM (#14097908)
We bought a ZaReason Linux laptop for my wife last year and it has really reset my expectations for what I can expect of a Linux desktop. It works mostly. But things break somewhat regularly and it needs a happy reboot at least once every two days. In short, by 2017 standards it's a buggy piece of shit. For the average computer user who does not want a Mac, I would recommend Windows over Ubuntu at this point. It's more stable and less buggy.

In terms of quality I would put it about 10-15 years behind Mac OSX or Windows. I almost never have to reboot my Mac because something broke, and when I use modern Windows machines I also seldom have to reboot them.

So my message to Canonical is to make something that doesn't suck. My wife doesn't care what window manager is chosen, just pick one and stick with it until it works. And test the crap out of it. test, test, test... Find bugs and fix them. Your geeky Linux user doesn't care about little annoying bugs, but less technical users really do.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by AdmiralAsshat on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:29AM (#14097999)
Sorry to hear about your wife's bad experience.

Never heard of the company, but based on the specs of laptops being offered from the website, I'd hazard a guess that the discrete GPU is probably the source of many of your woes. Linux has always been a second-class citizen for video cards, particularly since NVIDIA's binary blobs fly in the face of the FOSS spirit.

If she doesn't do intense graphical editing or gaming, an integrated GPU from Intel would probably run much better on Linux.

FWIW (and I hate countering anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence), I've got a Dell XPS 13 running Fedora and it will run days/weeks without a problem. I reboot it maybe once a month in order to apply the latest kernel, and that's about it.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:54AM (#14098213)
It baffles me that your recommendation is to get off Nvidia hardware + restricted drivers and use an Intel integrated GPU. Have you had such bad time with Nvidia hardware and their drivers?
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by AdmiralAsshat on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:39AM (#14098730)
Personally? No. But as stated, my primary laptop has an integrated GPU. Intel drivers tend to have support in the kernel so everything just works out-of-the-box. It's one of the reasons I tore the Broadcomm wifi card that came with the XPS13 and replaced it with an Intel 7265.

I am not sure whether the parent was using the nouveau drivers or the NVIDIA blobs. It's besides the point either way: GPU's on Linux are notoriously finicky, no matter your stack.

The recommendation to go with an integrated GPU is strictly pragmatic. I personally am a tinkerer and am willing to live with a little bit of pain as far as functionality or configuration for ideological reasons if it means supporting a FOSS distribution. But I can't make that same assumption for the parent's wife, and if she wants something that "just works" because she's unwilling to tolerate that level of pain, then an integrated GPU might be the way to go.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:23PM (#14101888)
I don't understand how that's your go-to suggestion. It just makes a lot of assumptions, it's anecdotal, and I'm just surprised there's this kind of armchair tech support on HN. And then others go on the forum and read it.

Everybody on the below thread is having a tertiary argument thinking I have something to say about GPUs and their drivers. I could not care less.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by freehunter on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:06AM (#14098362)
Remember the famous video Linus did where he just flipped a middle finger to nvidia because nvidia flipped a middle finger to the entire Linux community? Yeah, the advice is always "don't use nvidia with Linux".
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:16AM (#14098481)
2 things. 1: As a consumer IDGAF. 2: sure as long as we're not saying "your problem is because of a discreet GPU, switch to integrated, so much better!".

Also, You want to lay down all the graphics options when Linus did that and _not_ pick Nvidia? Cool, go play zork. I understand what the situation was, but don't deny who was actually delivering on graphics performance either.

Today however, it's genuinely refreshing to see AMD's driver efforts and overall offering as a company.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by abstractbeliefs on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:17PM (#14099124)
But as a consumer, you _do_ give a fuck!

Making the wrong consumer choice here matters, because it can take you from a good, functioning PC to one that works far less effectively.

You're right in that you shouldn't have to give a fuck, that they should all - in support terms - be drop in replacements allowing you to balance up cost vs. performance, but the Linux team have tried awfully hard to make it that way without being able to reach a compromise with GPU producers.

In the meantime, Linux gives you a choice of external GPUs at varying levels of freedom and support. That's more than nvidia gives you.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:41PM (#14099346)
You're right, I do care. I care first about what works, and the choices available to me. At that time, Nvidia was working at the performance and stability required and nothing else. Today the landscape has changed significantly and there is actual choice. I don't care so much as to lower the bar of what is acceptable.
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by freehunter on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @12:35PM (#14099293)
Nvidia may have had the more powerful video cards, but at least AMD's video cards had functioning drivers for Linux. If you bought an Nvidia card to use on Linux back then, you were paying more for a worse card.
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:07PM (#14101755)
Not sure what rock you lived under: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2934504/why-you-should-avoid-... http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bioshock-...

Again: Today however, it's genuinely refreshing to see AMD's driver efforts and overall offering as a company.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by lorenzhs on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:00AM (#14098285)
Why are you baffled? It's no secret that Nvidia's linux drivers cause problems and that Intel's tend to be very good.

For the record, I had a really bad time with Nvidia hardware and their drivers on Linux, and the whole Optimus thing that they pushed 5-ish years ago.

Never had a problem with Intel graphics, except that power management (RC6) support in Sandy Bridge chips took a while to mature.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:06AM (#14098352)
I'm baffled because I had the exact opposite experience and this is really bad advice.
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by rlpb on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:33AM (#14098658)
Ubuntu developer here. I favor Intel drivers (for non-gaming) for the reasons given. It's certainly much more straightforward driver-wise. And I can recall a number of bugs that impacted Nvidia only, where one cause was that they have proprietary drivers.

> and this is really bad advice

I think that's a huge stretch. Disagree all you like from your own experience, but I believe that the statement "Intel drivers work more smoothly than the proprietary Nvidia drivers" matches the current consensus.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:48AM (#14098840)
I don't care. This is bad advice because it's armchair troubleshooting.

Oh you have a problem? Stop doing this thing I don't like.

Yay everyone, we did it.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by chriswarbo on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @04:11PM (#14101291)
I don't see what's so baffling about the advice:

Nvidia: run a special process to fetch one of a limited set of binary blobs from a single vendor, shim them into the kernel and cross one's fingers that this combination of binaries will work. Then go through it all again at the next kernel update. Yes, Ubuntu and co. have scripts to do this, but it's all a big hack.

Intel: the drivers' already there, included in the kernel; there's very little to go wrong.

My current system has Intel graphics; if I did end up stuck with nvidia hardware, I'd try the noveau driver, and failing that I'd use vesa. Installing third-party driver binaries isn't worth the hassle.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:01PM (#14101704)

  Yes, Ubuntu and co. have scripts to do this, but it's all a big hack.
You are beyond reason
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by braveo on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:15AM (#14098468)
I've never seen a GPU stack as stable as NVidia's proprietary drivers, honestly. And I've tried the open source AMD drivers, but the card may have been too old for it.
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by ramy_d on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:19AM (#14098505)
Same. I'm eager to try some of the new AMD hardware + driver offerings of late. I'm hopeful for them and am considering them for my next GPU rotation (pretty far in the future though since I still have a 970).
Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by mwambua on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:41AM (#14098097)
I'm running a Thinkpad+Fedora combo and things couldn't be better. The sad reality is that software support will only be great if someone using the same hardware as you is actively participating in the distro's development.

Most manufacturers simply don't have the financial incentive to put in time and labour towards supporting Linux.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by quirkafleeg on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:46AM (#14098815)
> things break somewhat regularly [...] reboot at least once every two days [...] it's a buggy piece of shit [...] 10-15 years behind Mac OSX or Windows [...] make something that doesn't suck

Your comment would be more interesting and sound less like a troll without this.

What are the "things" you're talking about and how do they "break"?

What are the ways Ubuntu is at the standard of 15 year old versions of Windows or OSX?

AIUI Linux is actually pretty well-known for its stability. On desktop I never reboot (Xubuntu) unless there's an update that requires it, and even then it's usually several days later, due to having so much running I don't want to close.

If it "sucked" and was so buggy it required rebooting every two days then I think we'd hear more about it from its tens of millions of users, not all of whom are "your geeky Linux user", as you put it.

> My wife doesn't care what window manager is chosen

I don't care about window managers either. I don't have any of the problems you're talking about.

> little annoying bugs

For example? Actual bugs, or just things you personally don't happen to like or that don't behave like Windows?

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by dijit on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:32AM (#14098026)
I have to respond to this with my own experience on what is admittedly a very expensive machine.

I recently bought a Dell Precision 5520 (a bumped up XPS 15 with Kaby Lake basically) and I have to say that the Ubuntu it shipped with worked pretty flawlessly- I had absolutely no issues at all it's shocking to me how well it ran and all the niggling things I expected to pose problems worked as flawless or even better than the last time I run them on windows. (Wifi/Trackpad/Battery and indicators)

The only issue I had was the Thunderbolt 3 dock I bought with it, for some reason the USB ports didn't work. But after I installed archlinux with a more modern kernel even that went away.

I would say that my laptop is almost better supported than my old Thinkpad. And that thing was damn near flawless already.

Linux on the desktop is improving, and I think Canonical was and continues to be a huge driver of that- Ubuntu is the OS that is the target platform for a lot of these Linux supporting devices and Canonical has a lot of responsibility in that area.

We might do well to appreciate that. Even if we don't like things like systemd/mir/whatever

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by CalRobert on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:54AM (#14098220)
I had a similar experience with a Galago Ultra Pro from System76, except I couldn't even type. It was an utter pile.

However, I've really like using Ubuntu on an XPS 13 from Dell.

To what extent could this be related to using hardware from piss-ant vendors who are trying to cobble something together from whatever Clevo has for sale?

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by dorfsmay on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:43AM (#14098112)
I'm surprised by the need of so many reboot, I use https://ubuntugnome.org/ LTS as my main desktop, and so does my wife and kids and have not experience such issue.

I cannot use the UI in OS X (my brain cannot adapt to it somehow), but have to use MS Windows 8 machines for work, and am always surprised by how inefficient their UI is, considering how much money has been poured into it.

Re:Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? by eip on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:15PM (#14099685)
>I almost never have to reboot my Mac because something broke

I find that hard to believe. I have a crapbook pro they gave me for work and I have to reboot it every few days because it becomes unresponsive.