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Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by dqv on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @03:12AM (#14030235)
>I am also quite surprised by the number of comments here at HN siding with Garadget.

I don't agree with disabling the customer's device, but I also don't agree with customers somehow being absolved of having a minimum level of decorum.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by PeterisP on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:40AM (#14030653)
Calling a product a piece of shit is perfectly acceptable behavior, it often is a reasonable and accurate opinion about a product and definitely meets the standards of the "level of decorum" expected for customer product reviews.

Customers shouldn't be absolved of having a minimum level of decorum, but that minimum is at the level of (a) personal insults at specific people ("Bob in customer support is a piece of shit" wouldn't be ok but "your customer support system is a piece of shit" is fine) or (b) libel, as decided by the legal system.

For direct criticism of a product or service literally anything that I imagine would be above that minimum level of decorum. Insulting people is not ok, but insulting products definitely is.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by victorhooi on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @05:35AM (#14030868)
No, I'm sorry, that is not perfectly acceptable behaviour.

It's not illegal - but it's also not helpful, or constructive, and nor is it desirable if you're trying to build a helpful community.

There are other ways of getting your point across, without resorting to insults such as "piece of s*it".

In Chinese, we might call this 家教 - or "upbringing". If you have no decorum, or class - it suggests that your upbringing was poor, or that your parents failed to raise you well.

We often forget that there's another person at the other end of the phone, or at the other end of our comment. In this case, a real-life person who put a lot of work into a product. You don't have to love it - but if you are going to criticise it, at least don't be a jerk, and make some good-faith efforts to work with them through the issue.

It's not exactly like the developer didn't try to help.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by PeterisP on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @05:55AM (#14030956)
The audience of Amazon product reviews is other customers, not the developer. "Don't buy this product, it's a piece of shit" is constructive, helpful, actionable advice to other customers.

It is desirable if you're trying to build a helpful community where customers help other customers differentiate between good products and products that sometimes don't work on arrival or have software reliability problems; a community that recommends to avoid certain companies is a helpful community to have for a buyer.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by code_sloth on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @08:37AM (#14031880)
The phrase "piece of sh!t" for better or worse, is now so widespread its almost never meant literally. People who take it to heart shouldn't be working in _any_ client facing role.

It might be chinese culture to avoid criticize things directly, but it's also part of the chinese culture to give backhanded compliments like "5 out of 5 stars, when it works, which is never." I don't think the 笑里藏刀 (literally translated as "dagger hidden in the smile") aspect of chinese culture claims any moral high ground over the western straight shooting f* you.

I'm chinese too.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by yunolisten on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @06:33AM (#14031160)
> It's not exactly like the developer didn't try to help.

In their first and only reply they perma banned the customers device ID. How are they helping?

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by RVuRnvbM2e on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @07:38AM (#14031491)
> In Chinese, we might call this 家教 - or "upbringing". If you have no decorum, or class - it suggests that your upbringing was poor, or that your parents failed to raise you well.

It's impressive that you're able to extrapolate the questioners life up until this point based on three words.

If the product in question is a shitty product, there's no problem describing it as such.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by AIMunchkin on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @10:19AM (#14032841)
If he's from China (and I'm assuming so), I'm not so surprised. It's a status thing culturally. I've had my ideas at work dismissed on the basis of my not attending an Ivy League school by the sort that spouts concepts like this.

A more amusing instance of this outlook at work: http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1940-china-one-p...

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by zzzcpan on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @09:08AM (#14032142)
"No, I'm sorry, that is not perfectly acceptable behaviour."

No, you don't get it. From a business perspective expecting good behavior from customers is just plain stupid. It's not customers' fault if they don't understand something and don't take time and effort to deal with your product and just call it shit, they are human after all. You can't defeat human nature. But you can try to understand it and at least be prepared to deal with it and minimize a negative impact on your business.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by psyc on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @08:18AM (#14031706)
I agree with you in principle, but times have changed. We still have words for this in America, but no longer really have the idea.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by vidarh on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @05:30AM (#14030848)
The problem with this, is that now I don't expect to be able to believe any of the reviews of this product, because their behaviour will make any of their customers who are aware of this event more timid.

To me, this is the seller trying to manipulate public perception by silencing reviews from those with a bad experience. I'll put up with a lot of problems if the seller is responsive and handle issues well, but if I risk having them stop me from using the product?

This seller has demonstrated I can't trust them not to turn off my access to their servers without warning. To me, that is an absolute deal-breaker that would stop me from ever considering their product.

I can understand anger over a customer that rushes to give a bad review without waiting for a support response first, but their response in my eyes made things ten times as bad.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by roystonvassey on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @03:51AM (#14030418)
If you operate a business in the Internet age and delude yourself that customers are required to have decorum, you are in for a rude shock, sooner than later.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by barking on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:14AM (#14030520)
You can require your customers to show decorum if you choose.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by Steve0 on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:18AM (#14030544)
Fair enough, but please tell them that before they enter a contract with you. Don't take their cash followed by not providing a service for reasons not stipulated before accepting the money.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @09:56AM (#14032614)
You would think "please don't be an asshole" would be common sense, but I suppose adding it your product description about you providing support is being explicit.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by jtmb on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @07:28PM (#14038249)
Not only providing support, but unilaterally disabling the product they purchased after the fact. That should be incredibly explicit. And even then.

Just look at Ham Radio Deluxe.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by robryan on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:28AM (#14030600)
This is actually not true if you hope to sell long term as an Amazon marketplace seller.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by barking on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @09:37AM (#14032419)
Is existing only at Amazon's pleasure any kind of long term strategy for a business?
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by obstinate on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @01:30PM (#14035191)
Depends on what you mean by long-term. It seems to be working well enough for a significant number of businesses at the moment, and has been for some years now.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by beedogs on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @09:02AM (#14032096)
Nope.

If you've already sold them the product, you really cannot do this.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by barking on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @09:34AM (#14032385)
No? If I went into a store to complain and my first words were "what kind of shit have I bought here?", then I don't think I'd have any cause for complaint if I were forcibly ejected and told to come back when I'd learnt how to behave myself. Same should apply online.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by stale2002 on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @10:11AM (#14032751)
If the store then came to your house and confiscated your product, you absolutely WOULD have the right to complain.

The store owner could go to jail, because that is called theft.

Screwing over customers has a cost.

This story went viral. And now this business is going to receive hundreds of negative reviews.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by Hydraulix989 on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @01:28PM (#14035178)
The product wasn't confiscated though, only the service was cancelled, and a refund was offered for returning the product. This is the main point a lot of people are missing here.

As it stands, this is how ANY court of law would see it as well.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by sametmax on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:03AM (#14030472)
People don't have decorum IRL. When something doesn't, they tell of their friends it's a piece of shit. If you submit yourself to a review system, you gotta expect it. If you can't accept that you need to change your view to see the world the way it is, not rambling, expecting the world to change for you. Unless you are able to change the world. But people rambling never do.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by mmjaa on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @03:48AM (#14030401)
>minimum level of decorum

Free speech doesn't mean much? Entire nations were founded on the basis of individual rights to bitch about things they don't like, without incurring oppressive retaliation.

Really, this is imperialism versus the free market. Either you harden up and listen to the people whose participation influences your survival directly (i.e. customers), or you go out of business.

In this case, the latter condition appears appropriate.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by deadbunny on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:03AM (#14030475)
> Entire nations were founded on the basis of individual rights to bitch about things they don't like, without incurring oppressive retaliation.

From the Government.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by rapht on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:19AM (#14030551)
> From the Government.

Because we shouldn't be protected from business interests when they get too powerful?

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by IncRnd on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:46AM (#14030680)
The discussion is about words, and no you shouldn't be protected from the words and speech coming from business interests.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by quirkafleeg on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @05:23AM (#14030819)
That's not even remotely what he was saying people should be protected from WRT business.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by IncRnd on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:19PM (#14036787)
Words were exactly the subject of his parent comment.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by mmjaa on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @06:02AM (#14030997)
One mans business is another mans government.

Yes, we should be protected from business interests when they usurp our basic rights to free speech. We should be protected - by our governments - whenever our rights are misused/abused.

What else is government for if its not to protect our basic rights?

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by kungtotte on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @03:29AM (#14030298)
He called their product a piece of shit and that justifies bricking his device?

I don't think customers get to behave however they want without repercussions, but come on...

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by atemerev on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @03:32AM (#14030321)
Thanks to psychology, there is a nice way of making it work for both sides (not in this particular case, of course — the damage is done).

Hardware companies should (and will, eventually) offer the devices for free and switch to subscription model.

Devices like these are not products, they are services. They are useless on their own without the operating backend, support and maintenance. If I am buying the device, I expect it to be working. If I am subscribing to a service, I know that it can be cancelled anytime.

(And $5/month are worth much more these days than $99 once. If you can keep the customer that long, of course).

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by raverbashing on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:22AM (#14030563)
I agree

But "subscription model" for a garage opener is, sorry to say, stupid

Of the things in my home I want a garage opener to have pretty good reliability. I need a plan B if the power is out for a conventional one. I don't want to get locked out if I miss a payment (this is not like rent where these things are regulated and lack of payments are handled through actual notices)

Relying on the internet to open your garage is just naive.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by dangrossman on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @04:28AM (#14030598)
The product is basically a cloud-enabled garage door remote. It doesn't replace the buttons on the wall in the garage, nor does it replace the garage door opener you use in your car, or however it is you work your door. It supplements them, like buying a spare remote, except this one is app-enabled and can be used without line-of-sight to the door.

I have a smart garage door opener, smart deadbolt, smart car (remote start/heat/cool/etc), smart thermostat, smart light fixtures, smart smoke detector... all of them function without internet, or power, as applicable. Light switches, buttons, keys, etc still work. Most smart devices are like that; the remote functionality is supplemental, not a replacement.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by atemerev on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @05:10AM (#14030755)
It is not that simple. Do you remember one of those bear toys that were sending the recordings of their conversations with children to an exposed MongoDB instance? I bought one of them for my daughter a few months before. And I am a software engineer who knows what an exposed MongoDB instance is. My voice and my daughter's voice are now in the leak. Thankfully, the toy was only used with my supervision, so I know what was said there.

The problem is that is was advertised as a Bluetooth-powered toy to communicate with your child via recorder messages. "It's fun" -- I have thought, so I bought it. Only later I realized that it forwarded everything that was said to their servers via their "cloud app".

OK, I have thought, so they have the recording. But at least do they have some decency to not share it with the public? And that, indeed, turned out to be a little naive.

The toy became "broken" a few weeks before the leak when I was finally fed with it, but the damage is done.

Now I have similar worries about my NetAtmo devices. They do look cool and measure CO2 content in my rooms, which is the reason I bought them, but they also contain an always-on microphone for measuring "noise pollution", and I am not sure at this point if they don't transmit everything I speak in my room to the CIA, NSA, Russians, our reptilian overlords, or whoever else needs to hear the shit I say at home.

Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by tnone on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @05:34AM (#14030861)
There's a really easy solution to this. Don't buy junk you don't need sold by people who don't care. Who convinced you you needed it in the first place? That's probably a bigger source of noise pollution...
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by Xylakant on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @06:07AM (#14031018)
The "sold by people who don't care" is a bit of a problem. How do I know they care? I'm a software engineer, I'm much more technical than most people around me. I have a hard time picking my way through that - is that childs toy bluetooth or wifi, with whom does it communicate what, how do they handle the data that they may or may not gather. Is it using a secure protocol to do so? How am I going to explain that to my less technical friends that don't have my knowledge? How can I educate them or how can they self-educate to a point where they can make a conscious decision about which toy is trustworthy? Heck, Miele had their dishwasher hacked, generalize for all IoT devices.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by atemerev on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @06:05AM (#14031008)
I want (in fact, I need, because of my sensitivity to CO2 levels) a nicely working CO2 sensor in my room. I tried a few cheaper options, but they didn't work as reliably. I did my research, and it was either NetAtmo or some industrial-grade sensors, more expensive and ugly.
Re:iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying ... by reagank on Tuesday April 04, 2017 @09:12AM (#14032173)
I love the idea that you have any concept at all about whether or not someone needs an item. We're all glad you aren't materialistic, but we don't really care about your opinions on other people's spending habits