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Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by davexunit on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:31PM (#13933998)
That's just playing word games. Netflix lobbied for EME so they could serve DRM'd video, end of story.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by artursapek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:32PM (#13934014)
Netflix wouldn't be a viable business if not for DRM. Why is everyone so upset? Having the option to use DRM in native web APIs is not a bad thing.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by josteink on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:02PM (#13934311)
> Netflix wouldn't be a viable business if not for DRM. Why is everyone so upset? Having the option to use DRM in native web APIs is not a bad thing.

Because Netflix is freeloading on our open technology to deliver closed content, and putting the cost to support their DRM on us. It's not right. It's not fair.

They are fragmenting the web by making "web sites" which are browser and OS-specific.

If they want to make closed, OS-dependent stuff anyway, they should have to pay the cost, not us. They should just make a native app. Like they already do for at least 10 other platforms.

Basically keep your closed and non-free poison out of my browser and open web-standards. That's a no-DRM zone.

I'll use your app though, if you just go make it.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:28PM (#13934565)
In what sense is Netflix "freeloading"? Where does the free ride stop? Are they allowed to use TCP/IP stacks to deliver DRM? The HTTP protocol? Or is just Mozilla that's the problem?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by Touche on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:44PM (#13934742)
The free ride stops when they add stuff to a spec that other people can't freely implement.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @06:01PM (#13935404)
I understand why you don't like EME DRM. I don't understand the sense in which it is free-riding.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by Touche on Thursday March 23, 2017 @08:30AM (#13939163)
It's offloading the cost of implementing proprietary software onto others.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by pikzen on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:14PM (#13935965)
You don't see in what sense forcing the implementation of DRM into an open standard (HTTP in a broad sense, which includes HTML, JS, etc.), that has been developed for the past decades in a rather open way so your company can keep making profits could be "freeloading"? Not to mention setting it up in such a way that their part of the web is broken if for some reason you do not have their blessing for their DRM.

Netflix came in and screwed over everyone, in a way that is just as bad as Flash.

Sure, use the TCP/IP stack. Send your data over the internet. Make your own software based on that, it's just a transport layer and it screws no one else. Except they seem to be pretty damn awful at it, considering how comically bad all their desktop apps are.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:22PM (#13936012)
No, I don't. Can you help me understand? Netflix isn't preventing you from using any of the open standards already implemented in a browser.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by pikzen on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:31PM (#13936074)
No, they're not. However, the standard itself is now tainted with this.

By forcing their way into the standard with EME, yes, they did. You cannot implement the full standard without getting their blessing.

They profited from the entire work done by hundreds of persons on an open standard, and implemented a proprietary solution on top of it. And made it part of the standard.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by apostacy on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:31PM (#13934603)
I use Netflix, simply because it is slightly more convenient than what I used to do, torrenting. I'm willing to pay for that convenience.

Besides, they said that the Apple Music Store couldn't survive without DRM. And then one day they removed it and nobody even noticed. Now nobody uses DRM when they sell music. Even Spotify don't bother encrypting cached mp3s on your hard drive.

If Netflix switched to unencrypted streams tomorrow, it would have no effect. There is no content that is exclusive to Netflix. As soon as Netflix makes something available, it is immediately ripped losslessly and put on The Pirate Bay.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by sigmar on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:42PM (#13934102)
>Netflix wouldn't be a viable business if not for DRM.

Uh, why not? All Netflix series are already getting pirated even with DRM.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by bisby on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:54PM (#13934224)
Because the studios are the ones demanding DRM. I was under the impression that netflix original content is actually far more relaxed on restrictions (I don't recall where I heard this). They don't want DRM necessarily, but if they say "DRM is not an option" then the change of getting major studios on board is 0.

And even if you take netflix original content out of the picture, that applies. their "viable business" is "stream other people's content" and "other people" have to agree to that, and won't without DRM.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by MichaelGG on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:25PM (#13934525)
Netflix probably also enjoys this, as it presents a barrier to entry. They also don't say anything negative about DRM[1], instead talking about "premium" content. They even go as far as to say:

"This is a requirement for any premium subscription video service" -- this is blatantly false, unless you redefine premium to mean "requires DRM", in which case it's circular.

Also note the use of "protect" as if it was a positive or good thing.

1: http://techblog.netflix.com/2013/04/html5-video-at-netflix.h...

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by bisby on Thursday March 23, 2017 @08:13PM (#13945528)
perhaps "This is a requirement for any premium subscription video service that wants to interact with popular studios because if you don't interact with popular studios people don't view your service as premium."

Premium = big name movies

Big name movies = big name studios

Big name studios = full of corporate bigwigs who dont understand that DRM doesn't stop piracy

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:25PM (#13934534)
> Because the studios are the ones demanding DRM. I was under the impression that netflix original content is actually far more relaxed on restrictions

Where can you buy it DRM-free?

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by bisby on Thursday March 23, 2017 @08:09PM (#13945506)
I honestly don't remember where I had seen/heard this. Which admittedly makes my claim far less credible. But it was something along the lines of being able to play some netflix content on some player without DRM being applied to it. DRM would be something they use because they want to, not because it's part of their contract with themselves.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by astrodust on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:07PM (#13934356)
Why not? Shareholder accountability.

"We didn't bother protecting our content, and yes, sales are down 25% year over year, but..."

Fired.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by MichaelGG on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:19PM (#13934467)
Can you explain how this works? If there was no DRM, how would that lower their sales? Last I checked, things on Netflix were easily downloadable via torrents.

Are you suggesting that there are many shows on Netflix that someone wants to pirate, but the DRM is preventing them?

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by astrodust on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:27PM (#13934554)
I'm saying that if CEO you do nothing to prevent piracy then you get blamed for all the piracy. If you're using industry standards, like DRM, to protect the content they can't hold you accountable. It's just a cost of doing business.

If one day the industry recognizes that DRM is useless and it's no longer demanded by content holders, then as CEO of Netflix you can abandon it.

Steve Jobs told the music industry to suck it up and deal, and they did. He was unable to convince the movie/TV industry to do the same.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:30PM (#13934596)
Obviously, because if it was as convenient to pirate Netflix videos as it was to view them on Netflix, nobody would subscribe to Netflix, and their business would fail.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tveita on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:44PM (#13936172)
It already is as convenient to pirate Netflix videos as it is to view them on Netflix. You'll get a better selection, with a better UI, and often higher quality encodes. I still keep a Netflix subscription, because I want to pay for stuff, but it's hard to feel I'm getting value out of it.

I hope you realize the movies people 'pirate' have been stripped of the DRM. Even if the original file had DRM, that does not inconvenience downloaders at all.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @08:28PM (#13936454)
Really? I'm ready to believe you. What's the URL I enter to get the Netflix viewing experience, in my browser, without a credit card?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by piracythrowaway on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @09:32PM (#13936762)
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @09:45PM (#13936811)
Wow. This isn't as convenient as Netflix, but I concede that it's a lot more convenient than I thought piracy was at this point, and probably past the threshold where it matters.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by artursapek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:51PM (#13934199)
Houses get broken into even when they have locks, so why do you keep a lock on your house?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by MichaelGG on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:58PM (#13934271)
This terrible analogy would only be remotely close if your house was copied to millions of people, and a single person breaking in could expose everything inside to everyone on the Internet.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by artursapek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:23PM (#13934510)
So it's ok to steal things that are easy to steal?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by cr0sh on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @05:09PM (#13934992)
Stealing implies that the theft of the "thing" denies the original owner of possession and use of that same "thing".

Digital IP is different - you can make infinite copies of it. A copy I make does not diminish your copy, nor does it deprive you of possession of your copy, or usage of that copy.

What it does deny you is the amount of money which you might have made on the sale of that copy (if you are the rights-holder and are selling the digital IP "thing" to others). I haven't, however, stopped you from continuing to sell your digital IP "thing" - you still have it. You just don't have the money.

Surely you can see this difference? If it could be called anything, it would be considered theft of opportunity, rather than theft of an object. You have been deprived of making a portion of money.

Now - that's very close to - if not almost identical, to me going up to your digital IP (via website, a kiosk, you at a table burning copies onto disc - whatever), looking at it, then saying to you "I would love to have a copy of this, but you know, I just won't, because you are charging money for it".

I still haven't deprived you of your IP - you still have it, you still have your copy, etc. What I have done is deprived you of the opportunity of making money. Should I go to jail, or be fined, or be forced to pay you the money in some manner because I didn't buy it?

The only real difference between the two? Well - in the first scenario, I have a copy of the digital IP; in very real terms, I have the knowledge of a particular number (because that is what any digital work can be reduced to - just a very large number) - in the second case - I don't.

But - what if on the off chance I somehow guess that large number? What if I am able to do that? Since it is a real number, there is that possibility (granted, the probability of being able to do so is vanishingly small). I know have the knowledge of that number, and can use it as I see fit - including decoding it to watch it as a movie, or play it as a piece of music, or whatever. But I didn't copy it from you; in fact, you might not even know that I now know your number!

Have I committed a crime?

DRM (and the laws which surround it) - in a very real sense - is a system put in place to criminalize and prosecute people for knowledge of particular numbers - nothing more, nothing less. In other words, knowledge of such numbers is considered a crime, unless you have paid money for that knowledge - even possibly if you independently arrive at that knowledge.

Agree or disagree - but it's the truth.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by artursapek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @05:52PM (#13935345)
If the very large number took hundreds of people and millions of dollars to come up with, and it brings you pleasure, then yes, merely copying it when it's legally available for rent is wrong. Obviously stealing physical things is different from stealing digital things, but they are both fundamentally wrong because by doing so you're denying the creators the return on their investment.

The manufacturing (copying) cost for digital content being 0 doesn't really matter; it just means that the net cost of production is front-loaded. I can invest $30,000,000 in a housing complex with a tangible amount of units, or a Hollywood movie with infinite "units". I still deserve to get a return on my investment.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:25PM (#13934524)
That's false. DRM doesn't enable business. It's not even needed at all.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:29PM (#13934570)
If that's true, why does every major content provider disagree with you?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:33PM (#13934618)
They don't disagree. The usage of DRM has nothing to do with normal reasons.

See https://www.gog.com/forum/general/introducing_gogcom_drmfree...

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:36PM (#13934656)
What the hell is Gog? Serious question.

It was obviously never going to be my contention that there were no DRM-free video content producers. Just the major ones.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:36PM (#13934664)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOG.com (the article incorrectly calls it Cypriot company, it's Polish).

And I meant major ones. They admit that DRM isn't needed. See the report in the link above. Their usage of DRM isn't caused by business enabling requirements, but has completely crooked unrelated reasons.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:41PM (#13934718)
So basically every mainstream movie and television content producer is colluding with every other such producer for some crooked end? By revenue, the overwhelming majority of the media industry is a criminal conspiracy?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:43PM (#13934728)
Basically, every major film studio (or rather film publisher) is insisting on DRM when making distribution deals, for completely crooked reasons, yes.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tedunangst on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:23PM (#13936019)
gog.com is actually pretty good for getting somewhat older computer games. Like steam, but with even less hassle, and fewer hassles like the steam client deciding it doesn't like your network connection.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:28PM (#13936056)
They have recent ones too, as long as developers are willing to release DRM-free. I recently bought Torment: Tides of Numenera there.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by tptacek on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:31PM (#13936069)
What's the biggest title any developer has released direct (or "recent") to Gog without DRM?
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by shmerl on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @07:34PM (#13936100)
Biggest in the sense of sales, size of the game or development budget? GOG don't really publish their sales numbers, and budgets are often relatively private too, unless it's a crowdfunded project. But I'd guess it's probably The Witcher 3 which is quite a big game in many senses.

From the recently released, Shadow Warrior 2 is also pretty big. I wouldn't call the above mentioned TToN a small game either.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by pvg on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @09:01PM (#13936608)
Witcher 3, big AAA title about the adventures of a magical swordfighter who also gets laid. The twist is, the developer also happens to own GoG.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by pitaj on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:09PM (#13934371)
If you're like one these people who believe that DRM is actually an act of evil, then I guess it makes sense.
Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by davexunit on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @03:34PM (#13934031)
>Netflix wouldn't be a viable business if not for DRM.

Uber wouldn't be a viable business model if it didn't exploit drivers and dodge laws that apply to taxis.

Airbnb wouldn't be a viable business model if it didn't sidestep hotel laws.

If your business depends on having unjust power over your customers then you ought to go out of business.

Re:Update on HTML5 Video for Netflix by pitaj on Wednesday March 22, 2017 @04:03PM (#13934317)
These are completely different realms. Legality of Uber and Airbnb is very different from Netflix losing all 3rd party content if they didn't provide DRM.

Also, many people seem to have a real hard-on for the same legal system that outlaws marijuana and created the DMCA.