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Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by downandout on Friday March 17, 2017 @02:59PM (#13896899)
No, I am not projecting. The most common Thiel criticism I am aware of (especially in tech circles) is that he supported Donald Trump (along with nearly half of all voters). It is ridiculous to call half of all US voters "monsters". So if there is something else that makes him a person worthy of such a dramatic label, I am sure everyone would love to know what it is. If it's just more politically-motivated Valley-bubble drivel, then there is nothing to see here.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by tptacek on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:02PM (#13896931)
While I'm going to choose in this instance not to allow you to pry open my braincase and crawl around to see which of my beliefs do and don't make sense to you, let me clarify that I do not in fact believe that "nearly half" (really: a far lower percentage) of US voters are monsters. Voting for Trump doesn't make someone a monster.

Hope that helps.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by dragonwriter on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:40PM (#13897284)
> It is ridiculous to call half of all US voters "monsters".

Peter Think is not situated equally to all Trump voters. Even if we accept that it is a priori unreasonable that nearly half of the voting population on the recent election could be described as "monsters" (I don't, as popularity of an act does not contradict depravity of the act), it's quite possible to believe that voting for Trump reveals that one is either a monster or decieved by a monster, and believes that there are things about Think that make it particularly unlikely that he is a dupe, and thus that he is a monster but not all those voting for Trump are.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by kbenson on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:18PM (#13897086)
You say:

> No, I am not projecting.

And then you go on to pull out a bunch of statistics and imply the statement was about half of all US voters, and calling them "monsters", instead of the actual statement, which was about a single person.

Then you specifically acknowledge you still don't know what his justifications are:

> If it's just more politically-motivated Valley-bubble drivel, then there is nothing to see here.

Perhaps you need to look up what projecting means. Or, if you prefer, we can call what you're doing a Straw Man man argument. Not quite the same, but related, and it also applies.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by downandout on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:35PM (#13897239)
I am not sure this is even response-worthy, but why not. All I said was that if his "monster" label was based solely upon Thiel's support of Donald Trump, then that is a ridiculous statement because he is then calling all supporters of Donald Trump monsters. That is hardly a straw man argument. Perhaps you should look up Euclid's Common Notions. Specifically this one: "Things which equal the same thing also equal one another."
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by kbenson on Friday March 17, 2017 @05:05PM (#13897996)
Trump wasn't even in the conversation. The standing of people who voted for Trump wasn't in the conversation. You brought those in yourself. You not only assumed a political reasoning for the assertion, you then went on to introduce that to the discussion, and provide your opinion if that was the reasoning, but not in a constructive way ("it's ridiculous"). You continue to bring additional political arguments into this when I've been careful to note that it's not about politics, but about you assuming someone's reasoning using little or no evidence. That's not a useful way to have a discussion, and since my point was "doesn't really help the conversation" I think the state of this thread is ample evidence I was correct.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by downandout on Friday March 17, 2017 @05:50PM (#13898283)
I assumed nothing. I actually put the Trump issue in there to avoid a political discussion, as I think everyone has had enough of the "Trump bad" crap from the Valley crowd. I was essentially saying "you needn't reply if this is the nonsense you have based your 'monster' comment on". It of course had the opposite effect because liberal heads explode when they see Trump's name written anywhere there is a comments section, but that wasn't the intent.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by kbenson on Friday March 17, 2017 @06:46PM (#13898634)
I think what we had is a failure of interpretation based on some ambiguity in the wording. To my eyes, it appeared not that you were trying to avoid that conversation, but starting it (see my other recent comment on this topic, in which I almost added the gist of this comment). This was, to use again an overused and currently debated term, me projecting. That said, I see this as a somewhat unavoidable part of communication, and I didn't necessarily meanit in a pejorative manner when I originally used it.

My original comment could have been paraphrased as "hey, please don't bring that stuff up without real cause or evidence if it's not the current topic. It's makes things toxic fairly quickly."

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by pvg on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:40PM (#13897283)
Euclid proved any and all support for some political figure is equivalent? That seems implausible.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by literallycancer on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:08PM (#13896986)
>along with nearly half of all voters

Last time I checked, 46.09% of 55.3% was a little under 25.5% of all voters.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by downandout on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:17PM (#13897079)
That's the percentage of the population, which is why I was careful to say voters. In your own comment you acknowledge that 46.09% of voters voted for him. The opinions of those that choose not to vote in a country with free elections are completely irrelevant.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by literallycancer on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:39PM (#13897269)
>The opinions of those that choose not to vote in a country with free elections are completely irrelevant.

Please.. you have to register to vote, you have to stand in a line for hours before you can vote. How many people don't vote because it's too much of a hassle? Their opinions are irrelevant?

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by poikniok on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:23PM (#13897130)
So we are counting voters that don't vote now?
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by tptacek on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:33PM (#13897223)
Since elections in our current environment are turnout-based, in terms of gauging popular support, "eligible voter population" is probably the right metric. By that metric, Trump got just over a quarter of the vote --- and, by any metric, less than Clinton.

Since some fraction of eligible non-voters wouldn't have voted no matter who the candidate was, the truth of the matter is obviously somewhere in between a quarter and a half. But there's no sense in which "half the vote" isn't misleading.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by kbenson on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:31PM (#13897202)
Actually, I can think of individual cases where "voters" could mean one of each of the following depending on context:

- People who voted in the last election

- People who have voted previously in an election

- People who are capable of voting (citizens of voting age not otherwise constrained from voting).

It's probably usually obvious which one is meant in a conversation, but there are also likely cases where it can be somewhat ambiguous.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by beatpanda on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:39PM (#13897267)
Why is it ridiculous to call half of U.S. voters (or roughly 20-something percent of the U.S. population) "monsters"? Because it's a lot of people? Who cares? They voted to literally send armed paramilitary troops into my neighborhood to kidnap and detain people who have committed no crime other than being present on this side of an imaginary line. What else do you call that? Does that become not monstrous just because a lot of people think it's a good idea?
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by xiangmin on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:46PM (#13897335)
Meh. I'm a legal immigrant, it took me and my family many years. I have many friends waiting for years to go through the Green Card process. I don't understand this recent glorification/romanticization of people who chose to just come here and skirt the law, imaginary line or not.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by beatpanda on Friday March 17, 2017 @03:54PM (#13897403)
So you don't have a problem with ICE agents lying to get into people's homes, so they can take people away at gunpoint, breaking families apart and turning children (frequently U.S. citizens) into orphans, and keeping people in detention centers indefinitely, where they are frequently mistreated, all for committing no other crime than crossing the border?

Because that's the issue here. This is what the actual process of mass deportation looks like. There are any number of more humane ways of dealing with this, among them what the Obama administration was doing for eight years, but Trump supporters voted for destroying people's lives en masse, at gunpoint, without consideration of any consequences.

This is inhumane. Full stop. This is not about romanticizing any one or any thing, this about asking people to look reality in the face and defend the thing that they're supporting.

Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by AnimalMuppet on Friday March 17, 2017 @05:43PM (#13898240)
I do have a problem with you (or anyone) putting words in the parent poster's mouth. Please stop doing this.
Re:Palantir enables immigration agents to look up informatio... by bearjew2000 on Saturday March 18, 2017 @02:04AM (#13900141)
So what does

> Meh. I'm a legal immigrant

mean in context, in response to talking about illegal immigrants being needlessly mistreated, to mention that random legal immigrant doesn't understand the "glorification" of people? What does "glorification" mean here? The idea that you shouldn't trample on someone just because you can? Just how much do you have to contort and squint to not get a slight... whiff here?

https://warprayer.org/

Is that putting words into one's mouth, or explaining their own words to them, because they're too lazy or dishonest to do it themselves. You can't pussyfoot around this stuff on the one hand and then sit on the moral high horse: (likely not even) putting words into someone's mouth is a complete joke to looking the other way when brownshirts do their job. Not minding what the parent poster said, not following up on it with these questions, that's the real WTF here. Please learn from your betters rather than pointlessly berating them. One poster responded correctly, the rest fucking has to live with themselves, how's that for a different view point.