> As you can pretty much do everything off the bat, there's no
    > "oh a boulder, can't move it, better come back later" element to
    > the game. (This is my biggest gripe I think, a big part of the
    > Zelda games was doing a dungeon and getting a gimmick to unlock
    > new places).

I feel the other way around. Having to rewind back so that I can fulfil the given gimmick is the reason why I end up dropping all metroidvanias.

I love that gimmick and play lots of metroidvanias, but it's also refreshing for the Zelda series to try something else. They've been locked into a very specific formula for 2 decades. I haven't played BotW yet, but Link Between Worlds remixed the formula a bit (no mandatory dungeon order etc) and I loved that game.

That's probably just bad game design that you've run into.

Done well, an "unlock" ability should either grant access to more space off a central hub (that you'd be returning to anyways) or give optional minor rewards if you want to be the completionist back-tracker - zelda pieces of heart, or max mana upgrades; metroid missile capacity; even raw cash.

Being forced to backtrack (especially without fast travel) to an arbitrary area _to progress the game_ is bad design.

Same here. I have no patience anymore for artificial game-y boundaries, so being able to go anywhere in BotW (even if that means getting my ass handed to me) felt very liberating.

Funny, I very much like Metroidvanias exactly for this aspect (the world feels much more like a puzzle, which grants you a feeling of reward once you "solve" it).

On the other hand, I've always loved Gothic[1] for it's gating mechanism. If you got mangled by raptors ore some ork, that meant the area was certainly not meant for your level.

I guess it will be interesting how I'll feel on BotW once my Switch arrives...

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_(video_game)

BotW does this to an extent... if you die of heat exhaustion in a desert, you probably want to come back later when the story's gently guided you into acquiring heat-resistant clothes.

Or you could locate the ingredients for heat-resistant elixirs, make some yourself and just plough on anyway.

This is a game which takes "open world" quite seriously, and lets you go and fight the final boss straight out of the tutorial area if you want. Although you'll probably die almost immediately, the choice is yours. I rather like the blend it gives me of freedom and guidance.

Oh and someone in the ancestry mentioned the cooking UI is poor. Indeed, the cooking UI is very poor. A few things like that and some issues with characterisation and voice acting would hold me off giving this game a perfect score.

Your Gothic example sounds much more natural. I never liked the typical gating mechanism because it takes away your choice. In a sense, this still does the same thing, but sort of gives you that illusion that you're deciding not to go that way and get slaughtered, rather than just being told no.

Recent example which did this:

I'd have liked to do all the puzzles in the Tomb Raider reboot, but most of the temples or whatever were locked behind "you need to have gone to the next area and then come back with the thing you acquire" idiocy.

I don't want to endlessly retrace my steps to re-find places I've been before because there's a gating mechanism. If I'd organically had to go near to the places again maybe I'd forgive them - but I'd literally have had to go to old areas for no other reason.

It's just bad design

> As you can pretty much do everything off the bat, there's no "oh a boulder, can't move it, better come back later" element to the game. (This is my biggest gripe I think, a big part of the Zelda games was doing a dungeon and getting a gimmick to unlock new places).

I feel the same, it might seems counter intuitive but those limitation are what I liked the most about previous Zeldas. I miss the feeling of 'I wonder when I'l finally be able to go there'

The weapon durability kills me. And the fact that it doesn't auto switch to your next best weapon when it breaks. I have no clue how to cook anything whatsoever. There was never a guide in the game so I'm getting farther in the game without any special powers.

Bows that break after shooting too many arrows, ugh...

By the way, the old man does give a cooking tutorial in the Great Plateau, but you have to seek him out for it. Cooking is encouraged there as a way to deal with the cold to access one of the shrines. You can either cook hot peppers to make something to keep you warm or you can find a special recipe in a cabin; if you make the recipe for the old man (determining in the process the unknown third ingredient), he'll give you a warm doublet which will prevent the cold from damaging you.

The weapon durability one makes me feel like they took the worse parts of Skyrim and left out all the good ones. I really wish we could repair weapons and craft new ones. With the way it is you can easily end up in a situation where you have no weapons and a bunch of ennemies in front of you. I recently did the shrine dubbed "Major test of strength" and I literally when through 4 melee weapons and 3 shields, all because the damn guardian had 3000 hp. It's just ridiculous.

I kind of want to be on your side about the weapon durability. It annoyed me at first. But by the first beast I almost found it to be the other way around. I leave so many weapons behind because even after doubling my weapon inventory size I'm still constantly full of high caliber weapons. Especially after getting the Master Sword.

All of the guardians I have faced in the combat shrines drop weapons that at least equal (usually exceed) the total damage/durability consumed to defeat them.

Also: Shooting the guardians in the eye stuns them giving you a long window of respite during a fight.

You can shield parry guardians. I mean, missing the parry is almost guaranteed death, but it deals a lot of damage.

It wasn't a true guardian. It was one of those things with a shield, sword and spear. It only shoots a beam when it's low on hp.

I don't mind weapon durability too much, it forces you to manage your weapons a bit instead of always using the strongest one you have. I do wish it'd auto-switch in the heat of battle.

For cooking, pick an ingredient and select Hold, select the others, then go stand in front of a pot over a lit fire (of which you encounter plenty). The game will tell you to press A to cook. To restore health, just put a bunch of mushrooms and meat in a pot. Some mushrooms, herbs, crabs, fish, etc. tell you that they'll make you faster/stronger/less cold/etc., just throw them in with the meat. For elixirs just mix butterflies, lizards, etc. with boko horn, tooth, etc. Also if you get hearty radishes, you can throw them in a pot without anything else and it's basically full restore + extra hearts. It's broken.

If you want to learn more recipes, simply read people's diaries when you go into their homes. Like in Hateno village, one of the first houses, you can break in and learn a pumpkin stew recipe by reading those diaries.

I'll put this here: https://zelda.recipes

> As you can pretty much do everything off the bat, there's no "oh a boulder, can't move it, better come back later" element to the game. (This is my biggest gripe I think, a big part of the Zelda games was doing a dungeon and getting a gimmick to unlock new places).

I was actually considering getting it, but you might have just changed my mind. I like an open world, but the reward of progression is often a key to enjoyment for me in many cases. Do they make up for this in any other ways (ie: unbeatable monsters until you're high enough level/have better gear or something)?

Yup, you get better gear and some monsters are unkillable until you get better gear + life. You also become better in combat with experience, how to dodge, how to fight on a horse, how to combine many weapons and the landscape around you etc... It's definitely not your typical leveling up RPG. It's based more on your ability to solve puzzles and to play well rather than your attributes.

Yeah, I haven't played many Zelda games in the past because they seemed fairly reflex and puzzle based rather than strategy and combat tactics. "Playing well" in those games often amounts not to thinking but to just muscle memory which I don't care for much. The puzzles I can appreciate but I have a limit. I did like Twilight Princess... maybe just something about the mood if it though.

From playing it a bit, you definitely get new abilities and items: and can start to do things you couldn't earlier. You get a horse, etc..

All which was definitely progression. Just not like you'd traditionally think RPGs are: but more of a "real-life" acquisition style.

The way I've felt this effect the most is with traversal. Climbing is a problem until you get better gear, craft better food, etc. I'll see something on a mountain peak that I want and think "I'll need to increase my stamina and prepare before I attempt that!"

There are other kinds of traversal that feels this way too, but I'll leave the discovery to you.

You just have different taste. I can appreciate why people love Firefly. But I just can't stay interested past episode 2.

I'm not saying it's mandatory to like Firefly, but if you haven't kept interested past episode 2 then you've missed the good stuff.

I understand why you'd stop there, IMHO the first two or three (or even four) episodes aren't actually all that great. It's definitely worth persevering though, they get markedly better and Episode 6 is an absolute corker.

My wife says the same thing. I now find it funnier, more than anything, just to not do it. It drives her mad in a nerdy adorable kind of way.

Same with Battlestar Galactica.

My advice: stay away from Battlestar. I'm still mad at the writers these many years later. They kept pulling you on, making you believe they had any idea whatsoever about plot. They didn't.

Whereas I'd suggest it's all worthwhile, even with THAT ending :)

Certainly, I still go back and watch the first two episode pilot at least once a year. So. Damned. Good.

Same, although I'm not so much mad because I realized what they were doing and dropped the show before I'd invested much time. The BSG pilot miniseries is excellent, and I can recommend it in isolation, but don't bother with anything else about the show.

I enjoyed it, then I became suspicious, then I saw where the show was going and bailed. There's nothing special about writing yourself into a corner after all.

I agree with him and I still love the game. I feel like they could have made it so much better without too much effort by simply making a couple different decisions in terms of gamplay.

I agree with much of what you've said. The game had an initial wow factor for me but I'm growing tired. I can't work up the excitement to go on to the Goron and Geruda divine beasts. The story telling in it is also ham-fisted more than the usual Zelda games.

I like it even love it but it's not the best Zelda I've ever played. I still like Wind Waker better.

But honestly it's better than Skyward Sword, which I found tedious and annoying.

I love BotW, but Wind Waker is also my favorite. Tetra is one of the most interesting Zelda characters, the combat mechanics are great, and exploring the sea with the King of Red Lions as lightning fills the sky feels even more epic than the best moments of BotW. Not to mention the final battle..

Yep, I can still feel myself 15 years ago in my old loft apartment sitting in front of a CRT TV with my brand new Gamecube with the boat out on the water and the zelda dawn theme playing as the sun rises. The game has really stood the test of time, I really enjoyed playing the HD re-issue on the Wii U too.

>As my gear improves, I don't feel any stronger.

I don't see this as a problem. I'd rather a deep or skillful gameplay system where I get better and gear upgrades are incremental or side-grades.

"Avatar strength" is boring.

I really like what they've done with progression here. You still kind of get the standard RPG linear progression with armor upgrades, but it's the preparation aspect of the gameplay loop that really shines for me.

ex.: You get to a new region, something in the environment prevents you from exploring easily (for instance, cold). You can either tough it out and spend a lot of time/resources, or return later once you've acquired some meals/weapons that help you deal with the situation. I see this system as a really clever alternative to classic logarithmic power creep curves.

It also feels more natural and, well, realistic, than having XP bars and attribute stats, which really are just a vestige from the paper based DnD games of yore.

I'd argue the game doesn't really have that either. Combat feels really simple and hasn't changed for me over the course of 10 hours of play; swing, jump back, dodge, swing..

I'm not sure how you're surviving on just a swing sword and dodge strategy. If the enemy has a spear, you can't just run up to them. If they have thick armor you have to parry their attacks, maybe shoot a weak point. I just fought a giant monster who started covering his weak spot after I shot it one time.

Maybe you just got really good at it really fast :)

You get better weapons, more hearts, more stamina, and the most import thing is that you actually get better at combat. It would be interesting to spend a substantial amount of time with the game, beat it, and then start from the beginning. You'd be able to do everything, no need to learn it all.

I want to watch one of these 1hour speed runs, but only after I complete the game. I can only image how good those guys must be

> As you can pretty much do everything off the bat, there's no "oh a boulder, can't move it, better come back later" element to the game.

Many people (myself included) see that as a good thing. Every time I come up to an obstacle, I know that the only thing keeping me from getting past it is my own skill; I know there's no contrived McGuffin that will come along later and trivialize the time/effort spent working my way around it.

> As my gear improves, I don't feel any stronger.

Really? I'm about the same place in the game as you (i.e. two divine beasts down), and I can take on all sorts of enemies that I couldn't before. I definitely feel stronger than I did at the beginning of the game (e.g. I don't have to run in fear every time a guardian lights up, I can quickly go to the "test of strength" shrines whenever I need new weaponry, etc.)

> Cooking could be 10x easier

It could certainly be faster (I'd love to be able to batch my recipies instead of having to cook 10 meals, one at a time)

I'm exactly where you are, and I do agree with all of your points (except I like being able to do everything from the start).

I still feel that all of the good sides of that Zelda still makes it one of the best game I ever played.