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Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by mindcrime on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:19PM (#13825873)
so should the government force those people to spend their earned income on healthcare for others?

Absolutely not. Pretty much any question that starts with "should the government force ..." can be answered "no". You earned your income, it's yours and it should be up to you how to spend it.

Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and strips you of your agency and dignity as a human being. And while the end may sound noble ("everybody should have free health care") the truth is that nobody is in a better position to determine how your income should be spent than you, and nobody other than you has any standing to decide what kind of charity (if any) you should engage in.

Rather than stealing from Bobby to pay for Suzy's health-care, it would be better to enact policies that A. reduce the cost of health-care, and B. encourage general economic welfare, job creation, etc., such that both Bobby and Suzy can pay for their own health-care from the get-go.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by dang on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:13PM (#13826275)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13825673 and marked it off-topic.
Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by stanleydrew on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:37PM (#13825996)
> the truth is that nobody is in a better position to determine how your income should be spent than you

This may be unpopular to say, but this is pretty demonstrably false.

Perhaps you've not heard of the free rider problem?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by robotresearcher on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:57PM (#13826155)
> Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and strips you of your agency and dignity as a human being.

This is completely wrong. You have no rights except those guaranteed you by your fellows in a collective agreement. 'Rights' are exactly those things that the collective threatens us against violating in others.

Consider: if it's up to me to violently defend my 'rights' individually, then I am free to decide literally anything is my right. But the things your neighbors will fight others for on your behalf, these are your rights.

> the truth is that nobody is in a better position to determine how your income should be spent than you

Also plain wrong. How much of your income would you have chosen to spend on network protocol research in the late 1970s? Or on growing mold in dishes in 1910? We are much better at these decisions collectively.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by robotresearcher on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:42PM (#13851879)
I just remembered that the mold was an accident. The bacteria were being grown in dishes. Science accuracy.
Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by charles-salvia on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:23PM (#13825898)
I understand that's the conservative/libertarian position - however the government forces you to pay taxes to support infrastructure and other things. Are you against that as well?
Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by mindcrime on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:17PM (#13826301)
I understand that's the conservative/libertarian position

FWIW, conflating conservatism and libertarianism is a mistake. There's some incidental overlap, just like there is between libertarianism and liberalism, but that's pretty much the extent of it.

Are you against that as well?

Yes, of course. Basically, if the word "force" is involved, it's wrong. Come up with a way to collectively fund infrastructure that's voluntary and I'm all for it. But if your idea needs force / violence to be executed, then, well, maybe it isn't such a good idea after all.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by charles-salvia on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:36PM (#13826431)
Right now, I can't think of a good way to have everyone voluntarily fund infrastructure. No nation-state has ever functioned without the threat of state-imposed force. It's not a pleasant reality, but nobody really knows how to do better at the moment. The only known alternative is scaling back civilization to pre-city-state conditions. But perhaps you have some suggestions on how to actually do this.

Regardless, this idea you have - that governmental "force", or any kind of institutional force that suppresses your individual will, is some kind of ultimate evil - seems very misguided. The laws of biology and physics will override your will and force you to degenerate and die. Micro-organisms will force you to cough up blood and die. Wild animals will force you to give up your flesh and die. Collective human institutions are the only things that have successfully imbued individual humans with an order of magnitude more power and more rights than our primitive ancestral conditions would allow. Many of these human institutions are also abusive, however there doesn't seem to be an alternative to forming collective human institutions that require forced large-scale group efforts if we want to actually not die of malaria all the time.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by Daishiman on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:43PM (#13826040)
Some people will never have the means to pay for their own health care. Some jobs that have social value do not pay enough money to care for people. In your worldview, those people don't deserve to have health.

I'll stick with civilized societies thankyouverymuch.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by mindcrime on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:17PM (#13826304)
In your worldview, those people don't deserve to have health.

No, that is not my worldview, not in the slightest.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by Daishiman on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:12AM (#13827883)
Unless you can provide health care for those who are able to in a way that doesn't end up in coercing someone to give their share of resources towards that, then whatever you think may happen, will end up in some people not having access to care.
Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by hackuser on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:34PM (#13825976)
Government is "forcing" very few people. Most people participate in society voluntarily.

For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily.

EDIT: I don't follow Hacker News' rules and norms because I'm afraid of being banned, but because I respect the other people here, respect that there need to be rules, and respect our hosts' authority and need to make them. It's something (almost) all learn as children; it's healthy social interaction.

Most people are responsible members of their communities. The concept of force applies only to a very few.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by white-flame on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:05PM (#13826214)
> For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily.

That sounds like the IRS's shtick about income taxes being "voluntary". From a technical perspective, these decisions are under duress, under threat of legal repercussion, even if you find that choice agreeable and would act in the same way without the law involved.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by hackuser on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:07PM (#13826244)
> From a technical perspective

I'm not sure what this means. I'm aware of the theoretical argument.

The great majority obey the law because they want to. The threat of jail is actually minor; you can get away with quite a bit.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by mindcrime on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:19PM (#13826316)
The concept of force applies only to a very few.

No, it applies to everybody. That you, by happenstance, voluntarily do something that somebody is trying to coerce you into doing does not negate the threat of force.

Your position might change one day when your circumstances change, and then the seemingly benevolent government that you put your faith in may well show its teeth. But those teeth are always lurking, even if they're just out of sight.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by piedpiper_ on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:03PM (#13826194)
> For example, government doesn't force me to obey the law; I do it voluntarily. They don't force me to pay my bills, not shoot my neighbor, and pay my taxes. I do all that voluntarily.

Yes you don't do those things because you will be sent to prison. Is it going to be Ok to send Bobby to prison because he didn't want to cover Suzi's medical bill?

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by hackuser on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:05PM (#13826210)
> you don't do those things because you will be sent to prison

No, I don't do them because I don't want to, and because I respect group decisions. I want to pay my bills; I don't want to rip off other people. I don't shoot my neighbor because I'm not a sociopath and like normal, healthy people I very much don't want to do it. I pay my taxes because we took a vote and I respect that and want to do my share. etc.

You can get away with a lot and not go to jail. That's not what determines most people's behavior.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by bdamm on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:30PM (#13825940)
The difficulty here is making health care a profitable business, which is at odds with providing good health care. American health care, even for the wealthy, is a miserable affair when someone really needs major care (such as following a traumatic accident). The patient becomes a liability for the insurance company and a profit center for the hospital, all of which is more important than the patient's long term recovery. That is not the only way American health care fails.

I would definitely welcome a unitified health care system in California.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by ceejayoz on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:29PM (#13825932)
> Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and strips you of your agency and dignity as a human being.

So you assert, as if this were universally accepted.

I assert being bankrupted or killed for want of affordable, accessible healthcare is a violation of my most fundamental rights, and strips me of agency and dignity as a human being.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by mindcrime on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:24PM (#13826352)
I assert being bankrupted

How is being bankrupted a violation of your rights? If anything, it would seem that it's the opposite, as it's your creditors who lose something that you had committed to repay them, no?

affordable, accessible healthcare

You have the right to purchase as much health-care as you can, based on some balance between what you want and can afford. But on what basis do you assert that the world owes you health-care? In the absence of any other system, would you say that it's OK to stick a gun in the face of a doctor and command her to treat you for free? Are you entitled to medical care to the point that your "right" trumps the rights of others to avoid coercive force?

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by ceejayoz on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:42PM (#13826457)
"Take on this massive debt or you'll die" isn't coercive force?

No, I wouldn't force a doctor to work for free at gunpoint. That's why even single-payer systems pay doctors to willingly work within national healthcare systems.

The rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness have substantially more historical support here in the US than your asserted right not to be taxed for anything.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by mundo on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:44PM (#13826059)
Using force to collect money from citizens and then spending it on their behalf is what governments do. The word for a big organization that works for the common good and gets its money voluntarily is "charity."
Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by smogcutter on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:35PM (#13825983)
> Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and strips you of your agency and dignity as a human being.

This premise is not as self evident as you believe.

Re:Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about s... by FullMtlAlcoholc on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:35PM (#13825980)
You must not be familiar with market failures