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Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by techthroway443 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:25AM (#13818118)
Yea because the handful of blogs and snippets you've read gives you ample perspective on the thousands of employees at Uber. Give me a break
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by zorpner on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:32AM (#13818153)
Actually, I work and am friends with a number of ex-Uber employees, did contract work for them years ago, have driven for them in the past... But you certainly think that the few words of mine you've read seem to give you ample perspective into what I know, don't you?
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by michaelmrose on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @01:31AM (#13818408)
To most people their work is just work they go there and do what they need to do to support their family and I think those that aren't directly working to support iniquity can be forgiven for not considering whether their companies culture is negative.

The fact that you can't separate their work ethic and value as employees from your judgment of the company as a whole is an analytical failure. These are distinct things.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Bartweiss on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:30AM (#13820864)
This seems alarmingly broad.

In 2015, Uber employed 1,200+ engineers. Some of them worked in insular settings like self-driving research where they might never meet the people recently in the news, or even hear stories. (Yes, some of this has hit the news before. No, that doesn't mean everyone heard about it, even in-industry.)

Compare to some place like Amazon, where it's pretty well-established that the answer to "how's the engineering culture?" is "depends entirely on which part of engineering you're in". If you dislike the Amazon.com product ranking team, are you going to blackball AWS SREs for it?

If the idea is that Uber's business model itself is the ethical problem, then yeah, you could hold all the engineers accountable for that. But that's a very different question than the internal crises.

(Also, do remember that "ample other opportunity" isn't very applicable to anyone on a visa tied to Uber.)

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by zorpner on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @11:38PM (#13827024)
(Also, do remember that "ample other opportunity" isn't very applicable to anyone on a visa tied to Uber.)

I don't really agree with the rest of your comment (I think Uber has had enough broad ethical problems over the last several years that hearing stories would be inevitable), but this is a fair point, and I'd like to acknowledge that I missed it. Thank you for pointing this out.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by orange_county on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:12AM (#13818069)
My friend's wife was previously in an abusive relationship. Some people would say she stayed too long. She's a great person and I'm glad my friend married her.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by zorpner on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:15AM (#13818083)
Comparing voluntary highly-compensated employment to domestic abuse is an insult to your friend's great wife, among many others.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by tbrownaw on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:51AM (#13818242)
...yeah, you're going to have to explain that one.

I seem to recall hearing somewhere that relationships are voluntary too, and there's groups offering help to anyone looking to escape a bad one. Yet, blaming people for not leaving immediately tends to be rather frowned on.

Is the difference just that in one case you're getting paid, and are therefore transformed into a perfectly rational homo economicus? Is it that it's easier to (know you need to) leave if the only danger is to your morals rather than to your physical body? Is it somehow easier to recognize moral danger than physical danger?

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by watwut on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @04:07AM (#13819018)
People go into relationship with expectation of those being long term. People are expected to create ties to them and leaving your husband/boyfriend/wife/girlfriend is oftentimes seen as wrong - you are supposed to be loyal.

It is not nearly the same with companies.

Also the issue here is not that they accepted being abused, it is the suspicion that they contributed to toxicity. It might be unfair to quite a few of them, but it is still very different.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by Bartweiss on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:39AM (#13820937)
> You are supposed to be loyal... It is not nearly the same with companies.

I'm not defending the primary analogy, but this is bizarre to me. As I grew up, many different people told me about the importance of loyalty to coworkers (and by implication employers). I heard about how you have to show you're willing to stick around for the long haul, dedicate yourself to a business, and suck it up when things are bad. At least if you're the one suffering, lots of people will tell you to stay with a company regardless. The phrase "paying your dues" is all about this.

Yeah, 20-somethings and software devs are both known for being a bit more mercenary than that. I think that s a good thing, since it encourages companies to act responsibly.

But there is still a strong culture that expects loyalty to employers, even when they're treating you poorly. It's not universal, but for some people it comes from most of the people they care about.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by lazyasciiart on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @03:24AM (#13818834)
I suspect you're just making a fun comparison without much thought, but it comes across as pretty obnoxious. Nobody at Uber is afraid they'll be murdered if they quit their job. Stop trivializing domestic abuse.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by throwanem on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @05:50AM (#13819415)
Doesn't read like trivialization to me, and I've been in abusive relationships both intimate and professional. If we want to talk about trivializing, we could talk about your implicit equation of all domestic abuse with the relatively rare case where murder a plausible concern, but that's beside the point; what reads like trivialization to me is saying "oh, anyone still at Uber prima facie has ethical problems, I wouldn't hire anyone like that."

Not everyone who could easily change jobs realizes it, especially after being worked out on awhile by a workplace culture that seems to prioritize gaslighting good engineers into thinking they're poor ones - cf. Fowler, and imagine how much worse it is for someone less confident in herself.

Not everyone who realizes they could change jobs does so, and not because they like the shitty culture where they are - Uber uses golden handcuffs, too, and that's not an Uber problem, but a startup culture problem in general.

Abusive relationships tend to end when the victim gets a "wake-up call" - a moment that takes them outside the narrow perspective their abuser has been at such pains to create, and brings home the reality of their situation. There are certainly people at Uber for whom Fowler's article, and the follow-on exposés it's prompted, have constituted just such a moment. And now that they're trying to get away from their abuser, they get to deal with being stereotyped this way? That's trivialization.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by c0smic on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @02:23AM (#13818594)
Because generalizing someone solely based on where they came from isn't also an ethical problem.
Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by spudlyo on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:59AM (#13820635)
I've worked with a number of otherwise smart people who have a low social intelligence. These folks tend to do their work and keep their heads down, and might not even realize that there are widespread cultural problems at their workplace.

I would also bet that even at the most toxic of workplaces there are pockets of normalcy.

Re:Uber's 'hustle-oriented' culture becomes a black mark on ... by 234dd57d2c8dba on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @12:15AM (#13818080)
Or maybe they were on a team with a normal manager? These kinds of incidents are probably _very_ team dependent.