Exactly! Charge me what you're going to charge. None of this tipping nonsense. It's really a vestige of former times when if someone felt nice enough they'd offer you a tip --not that you deserved it, but it was to show they had heart, a kind of virtue signal.

Why would Lyft want to continue this anachronistic idea which puts the burden on a fare? It's the number one reason I do not use Lyft.

Just don't tip. I don't know anyone who actually tips in Lyft.

The number one reason you don't use Lyft is because of tipping? What do you use instead, Uber, taxi, or do you drive? If it's the first, how do you justify using Uber when its practices are significantly worse than an optional tipping for the users? If it's the second, how do you justify using a taxi when tips (in the US) are almost mandatory?

Uber. It's just mentally easier to deal with. After spending time in other countries, I have come to dislike tipping. Having to decide --do they deserve it, do they not? I don't want to deal with it. Tipping used to be an optional thing in transactions but it has become pervasive. Tipping jars. Just charge me more and pay the barista a wage a highschooler or recent graduate can live on.

But that is what Lyft is doing... they charge your more to give a little more to the driver. And on top of that they offer the tipping. On the other hand Uber pays less and doesn't offer tipping. The worse of both worlds.

I agree with you on tipping but your reasoning seems to need some work.

You assume he cares more about the driver than his own internal state.

It seems you significantly value not having to tip over rewarding drivers appropriately.

I use Lyft because I can ensure that the other person in the transaction is fairly compensated. I see you would prefer for both services to fairly compensate drivers, but given the choice of doing more work to ensure adequate compensation or giving up on it entirely, you went with B.

I agree with you that tipping sucks, but using Uber doesn't the functional reliance on it go away, it just means you don't see it (and the people working for you can't benefit from it). That's not an awesome look.

Okay, sure, tipping is annoying for multiple reasons but if that's the sole reason you won't use Lyft, that, all things equal (give no tip) would give the driver a better wage, you're being too dogmatic about one specific issue without looking at other issues surrounding both Lyft and Uber. You would rather feel good about yourself and make things easier for you by choosing an app (Uber) that pays drivers less but doesn't have the option to tip than choosing an app (Lyft) that pays drivers better but includes the option to tip (which is not enforced). Your argument especially falls flat when you say "just change me more" since Lyft generally does charge you more so they can pay the driver somewhat better money. I'm not sure if you've used Lyft or if you just assume you have to give a tip because the option is present, but unlike many other cases where tips are present (restaurants, taxis) tipping in Lyft isn't mandatory and it's presented such that they make it clear it's optional.

When was tipping optional in general? In your lifetime?

If you have trouble dealing with the details, just pick a standard percentage.

This is a complaint against American culture in a broader sense, not really Lyft specifically. Valid complaint for sure, just misdirected.

No, it's a complaint against Lyft since they made a conscious decision to include tipping, while their main competitor demonstrated that modern American companies do not need to bow to stupid customs.

[edit: shouldn't have implied that Uber is financially successful]

I think it's still an open question whether Uber has shown that "American companies can be successful." They are losing hundreds of millions per quarter and are only still afloat due to venture capital.

That same competitor pays its drivers less (Lyft takes a smaller cut than Uber). So in this case, tipping has not served as an excuse to pay employees/"contractors" less than the competition.

> their main competitor demonstrated that American companies can be successful without bowing to stupid customs.

And then Uber bent in May 2016.

What happened then? I still do not tip

They officially changed tipping policy as a result of a contractor/employee lawsuit. Drivers are now allowed to ask for tips, have tip "jars", etc.

That's exactly why I like it. This either tip or living wage thinking is so American! How about both!?

I want the easy option to tip someone for exceptional service, but I also want them to get payed well enough to not feel obliged to.

What do you consider exceptional Lyft service?

Exceptional, by definition, is rare. Having an easy option for a rare event is usually bad UI.

Lyft has already split the fare 20% for themselves and 80% for the driver. Lets assume there is an additional tip of 20% kept by the driver so effectively a bulk of the fare. Now is that by itself equal to a living wage or does the fare need to go up? If the fare goes up will consumers continue to use the service?

Why is that sentiment (general sentiment, not just yours) different in case of restaurants?

When I meet Americans and when I leave w/o tipping, which is not common but normal where I live, they feel really offended and sometimes, I suspect, they might have thought they have to hangout with stingy persons like me. I am not sure whether I am meeting a very different kind of Americans or it's ingrained in the culture there in US.

Problem is they are usually not even willing to see that it's a different culture here, or that we tip based on the service and/or the fact whether the restaurant charges a "service charge" or not (it's additional to service tax).

Do you leave no tips in America or in your home country?

I give about 30% of my Lyft drivers a tip, and I'm glad Lyft includes the option in their app. I've occasionally wanted to tip an Uber driver but then not had cash on me.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect ride share companies to pay their drivers a fair wage when they are in fierce competition with each other and self-driving cars are on the horizon.

I agree "mandatory" tipping like in US restaurants isn't a great system. I don't think including tipping in an app with a default of $0 makes it close to mandatory. Lyft could give stats on what fractions of rides have a tip given; my bet is it that it's relatively low. Making optional tipping easier is a good thing.

> I don't think it's reasonable to expect ride share companies to pay their drivers a fair wage

It's always reasonable to expect companies to pay their people a fair wage.

I always liked the quote, “No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

Nice quote, thanks!

"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."

Franklin Roosevelt's Statement on the National Industrial Recovery Act (16 June 1933)

[0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

You can "expect" this all day but as long as you keep throwing your dollars to companies that try to pay their workers as little as possible (like Uber) they will continue to squeeze them as much as they can.

So if you were running Uber, would you increase your prices to pay a more fair wage even if it makes you more expensive than competitors? Would you expect to stay in business if you offered a commodity like transport at 20% higher prices than competitors?

Is it a particularly ethical standpoint to say "I don't pay my driver's a fair wage, but if I did then I wouldn't make money!"?

I would rather have companies be forced to pay a reasonable minimum wage and compete by improving the service or efficiency, not just pushing the employees to work for less and less.

> Is it a particularly ethical standpoint to say "I don't pay my driver's a fair wage, but if I did then I wouldn't make money!"?

Not very ethical, but rational, profitable, and prevalent. Cost is a large area to compete in, and people are expensive.

It would be nice if companies acted ethically, but that isn't their reason for existence (especially in fast growing or large companies). If it's not surprising to me when companies act unethically, can I honestly say that I expect them to act ethically? Not if expect means "assign high probability to".

I agree that regulation is needed. It seems that often basic economics (people want to move around as cheaply as possible) lead to unethical situations (paying people as little as possible to move people around). I'm far from an expert of economics, but it seems like regulation is a way to change the rules of the game to have more ethical/fair/uniformly distributed equilibriums at some cost in net efficiency.

I think this comes back to the original statement of "It's always reasonable to expect companies to pay their people a fair wage."

This is a bit ambiguous, and perhaps it's a different reading of it that's the contention.

Expect can either mean I think it's likely, as in I expect the sun to rise tomorrow, or a requirement.

I am not surprised that uber try and pay their drivers so little, but I am disappointed and want better from them.

> I'm far from an expert of economics, but it seems like regulation is a way to change the rules of the game to have more ethical/fair/uniformly distributed equilibriums at some cost in net efficiency.

I agree. Safety regulations are a good example of this.

Contractors, not employees.

I assume these drivers are all cutting checks to the IRS?

In the UK at least they're workers (based on the outcome of a fairly recent ruling), despite Uber trying to say they're all self-employed.

If it weren't for the contractor lawsuit, I think Uber should have kept it's anti-tipping policy.

The 'Premium' image was black cars, inspected cars, and no need to tip.

In the UK taxi tipping is often just rounding up, so an 8 or 9 pound fare is £10. The driver won't be upset about giving change, but £1 times 10 5 days a week adds up. (disclaimer: my prices are based on 10+ years ago and always paying cash).

With several ride sharing services waging a war of attrition in terms of fare prices, it is challenging to prevail with higher pricing. Unfortunately many people do not care why prices are lower, they just prefer the cheaper service.

Regulations could help setting a limit to that, but then half of the US believes that regulations are bad for businesses and jobs. Part of that is true, but then what is the point of a job that makes you poorer at the end of each day?

A workaround are tips. And it is not ideal, I concur on that, but it is more viable than getting the government to regulate ridesharing jobs to ensure a minimum wage or teaching people at a large to be socially responsible.

You can think of it as something similar to price discrimination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

It's not a great system, tipping the way it's done in cabs, restaurants, and "door-opening" (I only see those guys when I'm in America, no idea what to call them).

But people have come to rely on it, and there'd be fewer people working those types of jobs if there wasn't some extra money from the customers.

If there was a collective way to tell the tipping industry to change, I think a lot of people would be for it. But for now it feels like you're taking away something they reasonably expect if you don't tip.

> there'd be fewer people working those types of jobs if there wasn't some extra money from the customers.

And somehow, Europe isn't suffering from a massive taxi driver and server shortage. And here in the U.S., there is no shortage of Uber drivers.

> for now it feels like you're taking away something they reasonably expect if you don't tip.

Uber drivers never relied on or expected tips. Uber seized the opportunity to change expectations and disrupt the payment model, and customers seem to like it. "This is the way it's always been done" isn't a solid argument IMO.

But if you're using it as a point of Uber above Lyft, keep in mind that Lyft gives its drivers a higher percent of what it charges in addition to allowing to tip...which is much more in Lyft's favor. The complaint should be more towards Uber not paying enough wages than "I don't like tipping" if one is making a living wage argument.

You also still don't have to tip if you don't want to.

You don't have to tip, it's just an option to do it in-app.

"pay the drivers a fair wage up front" => If Lyft charged more they'd have fewer customers. Uber didn't even bother with tips and takes a higher cut, so drivers make less on Uber already, I don't see what's wrong with optional tipping.

One driver told me that lyft kept a portion of tips until you've covered a portion of some incentive. Thats the annoying thing about digital tips and most of this crap, there is no real transparency on who gets what. If you really want to make sure a driver keeps a tip, just give it to them directly in cash.

Or you can not tip them. You can just leave the car and never tip them at all. They won't know it until you confirm and decide on tip or not. I was a lyft driver for summer.

Are you European ? tipping seems to be a big habit in the U.S

No, but traveling to Europe for work helped to change perspective.

I thought drivers are not employees…