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Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dnautics on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:24PM (#13760764)
alright. I'll bite. I have made almost no money in the past year, and my bank account is nearly zero. I had a relatively middle class upbringing (but for reasons I'd rather not go into) my family is currently bankrupt.

Capitalism (in the free markets sense) is great. The problem is that gobs of money are stolen from poor people like me by the government through various processes, the biggest of which is inflation. This money is largely redistributed to cronies - the easiest of which to see are the big contractors. Less obvious are the banks and directly profit off of low-interest loans by flipping them to higher-interest borrowers, and even less obvious is wall street (whose coffers are filled by middle class people pushed into protecting their assets from inflation).

This is Capital-ism (in the marxian sense) -- the philosophy deciding that the pursuit of capital is a good unto itself. Unfortunately, the state has decided to attempt to 'harness' capitalism for its own idea of 'social good' which of course basically taints the non-zero-sum nature of free exchange with the zero-sum game of political hierarchy. The more this happens, the greater there will be inequality. It's a direct consequence of the first principles, and is unavoidable.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by friedman23 on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:50PM (#13760937)
Inflation is useful and is not stealing if the rate of inflation is communicated and stable. If the government decided to suddenly devalue it's currency for the sole purpose of reducing it's debt burden then it could be construed as stealing. If the government communicated that it will devalue its currency at a fixed 2% every year it's not stealing because individuals are able to account for it.

Why is inflation useful as opposed to deflation? If money were to be gaining in value rather than losing value people would be incentivized to do a few things

1. Hold on to money because it would increase in value over time

2. Not make purchases because the object being purchased will require fewer units of money over time.

3. Not invest in starting new businesses because the investor would be losing out on the guaranteed income from holding onto the money along with the fact that whatever the business sells will be worth fewer units of money over time

4. Disincentivize individuals to take out loans to start businesses because the value of the loan will increase in price over time.

However when money loses value over time there are a few nice properties

1. The burden of debt decreases over time

2. People are incentivized to invest their money into business

You seem to believe that secondary markets (namely wall street) are bad things. The secondary market is a good thing because it gives individuals that initially put up capital for new businesses to be created a way to realize the return on their investment without having to wait for dividends. This is good because people that are successful in choosing which businesses should have capital (because their product is valuable) and which businesses don't deserve that capital will be able to take their money and invest it into other businesses which would presumably create products that add value to the world.

Of course there are bad things such as advisors charging excessive fees to ignorant people, corporate raiders, fraudsters, etc.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dnautics on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @02:41AM (#13762058)
let's reframe your statements:

> 1. Hold on to money because it would increase in value over time

"disincentivize poor people from saving"

> 2. Not make purchases because the object being purchased will require fewer units of money over time.

"push poor people into consuming"

> 3. Not invest in starting new businesses because the investor would be losing out on the guaranteed income from holding onto the money along with the fact that whatever the business sells will be worth fewer units of money over time

"Benefit rich people who seek to invest in venture capital"

> 4. Disincentivize individuals to take out loans to start businesses because the value of the loan will increase in price over time.

"make it easier for people to sell themselves into debt slavery"

> 1. The burden of debt decreases over time

"make it cheaper for leveraged investments, de facto restricted to a small class of investors, to exist"

> 2. People are incentivized to invest their money into business

"push middle class people into subsidizing risky behavior by capitalists"

The reason why I am reframing your statements in this way is because a general policy of inflation affects everyone, and by and large the rich (good for them!) already have ways to escape, if not profit from, the generalized effects. The rest of us do not.

There are additional problems to the "perpetual growth mentality", that I don't want to bring up too heavily, like incentivising continued erosion of the environment, natural resource depletion and less conservation.

> You seem to believe that secondary markets (namely wall street) are bad things.

No. Secondary markets are great. What is not great is forcing people to participate, as in, socializing risk while while allowing the rich and politically connected to enjoy the fruits of the casino capitalism with golden parachutes and fail-upwards scenarios. The traditional left/liberal argument is that we need to add regulation to fix that and protect the investment of general public, which, being anti-state-socialist, I am vehemently against (besides which the long history of added regulations seems to only have the effect of ensnaring more of the middle class into the system of socializing risk and paying off the privileged). The only solution is to not have these insidious little pushes that force the general public into these dangerous activities.

Inflation is like proto-matter from star trek II. You think you know what you're doing, harnessing this praeternatural force that can bend and shape society to what you think are "good things", but the cost is you're really making things unstable because of the fallacy of the unseen.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by friedman23 on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @09:15PM (#13770842)
>"disincentivize poor people from saving"

You can save by investing in the stock market or bonds which is what everyone should be doing

>"push poor people into consuming"

You can save (investing is saving)

>"Benefit rich people who seek to invest in venture capital"

The majority of people starting businesses aren't rich venture capitalists and more venture capitalists fail more often than succeed.

>"make it easier for people to sell themselves into debt slavery"

Getting into debt is definitely slavery, I'm sure the millions of people that have used debt to their benefit agree with you.

I'm done reading your comment, it's filled with unreasoned hyperbolic language that doesn't reflect the truth. Look inward and realize that at some point in your life you became radicalized to the point where you can't even think rationally

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by ChuckMcM on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:07PM (#13761025)
This is a sentiment I hear often; "I'm a hard worker, I used to have a job that paid my bills and left a bit over for vacations but now I'm out of work and broke and everyone wants a piece of me and I have nothing left to give."

And it is a puzzling thing. Where did those jobs go? How is personal income so stagnant? And one of the things I note that is different now than was different before, was that by accumulating capital, large companies remove from circulation large chunks of money. It gets trapped by companies demanding it be 'cash or cash equivalents' so you aren't seeing it invested in long term projects. What you see are lots and lots of T-bills and other dollar denominated investments which can be liquidated on short notice. In January of last year the New York Times reported at $1.9T![1] and that has only gotten worse over the last 12 months. Nearly a $1.4T of this held by 50 US companies[2]. It is hard to get a handle on a trillion dollars, but if you take $60,000 a year as a "nice" middle income job in most of the country, half that $1.4T or $700B dollars circulating around in the economy is nearly 12 MILLION jobs!

I assert that because those trillions are sitting there in T-bills they have taken all of the oxygen out of the middle class. Many people when they have a bit more money in their pocket month to month spend at least some of that on things they wouldn't have spent on otherwise. Whether its a new car, or eating out, or vacations, or new furniture, or repainting the house. All of that spending then is going to companies that are hiring people to paint or sell you stuff or serve you stuff or make stuff for you to buy. And those people who doing all this stuff are also spending money and buying stuff etc.

I believe it is entirely possible that this has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism and everything to do with economic capital becoming trapped and stripped of its agency by companies who hoard it for no reason.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/magazine/why-are-corporat...

[2] http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/14/news/tax-us-companies-offsho...

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by xapata on Thursday March 02, 2017 @10:00PM (#13780422)
> hoard for no reason

If so, we simply need to increase the rate of inflation and the cash will start flowing.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by oconnore on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:25PM (#13760776)
If you have a bank account of almost zero, inflation can't possibly be stealing money from you (unless you also have gobs of cash under a mattress somewhere).
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by rocky1138 on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:27PM (#13760787)
Except that the prices of everything rise every year.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dakrootie on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:32PM (#13761144)
Everything?

True, some prices have risen. But, if I may, here are some fun equations to ponder.

1996 (Florida)

Minimum wage $4.25 Gallon of milk $2.73 Gallon of gas $1.26 Dozen eggs $1.31

2017 Minimum wage $8.10 Gallon of milk $3.31 Gallon of gas $2.41(was almost $4.00, if I remember correctly a few years ago?) Dozen eggs $1.59

1996

Electronics (to do work, using one's natural talents, for example) Expensive.

2017 Electronics: Much cheaper. Adjusting for inflation: much, much cheaper.

Of course, with electronics, there are too many intricacies to list, but here's a specific one. I bought a 512MB compact flash card in 2001, which set me back $249. I think the last one I bought was 2 years ago, or so. It was $60 for 16 GB. I make my living taking pictures. What would 16 GB worth of pictures have cost me in 2001?

I'm happy with these numbers. Simply put, let's think very carefully before using absolutes.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dnautics on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @12:57AM (#13761568)
Since you've cherry picked your data to support an observation of no inflation, do you also support not increasing the minimum wage?
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dakrootie on Thursday March 02, 2017 @11:43PM (#13780792)
There is acknowledgement of inflation in every one of my examples, save certain electronics. I have no idea how to answer this question as I didn't deny prices increased.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by oconnore on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:31PM (#13760811)
Blaming wage stickiness relative to prices is different than blaming inflation. And, outside unions and jobs with competitive labor markets, the best advocate for wage un-stickiness many workers have is government involvement via the minimum wage.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by WillPostForFood on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:32PM (#13761135)
96% of hourly workers already earn more than minimum wage, so it shouldn't be the first place to look at improving wage stickiness. Start with the cost of employment, primarily health care, which has sucked up a lot of money that should have gone to wage increases.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2015/home.htm

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by oconnore on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:57PM (#13761280)
Minimum wage sets a floor which affects wages close to it, too.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by WillPostForFood on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @12:53AM (#13761542)
Let me try a different tack. Wages used to go up without relying on minimum wage. Wages have flattened, so there are a bunch of other issues that should be looked at before just forcing wages up, which can have all sorts of unintended consequences, especially if the real reasons wages are flat aren't addressed first.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by oconnore on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @01:19AM (#13761671)
You're right. Raising or lowering minimum wage purchasing power is worthy of caution, but having minimum wage track inflation is an economic no-op, not a shift in policy.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dnautics on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @02:31AM (#13762014)
it's not an economic no-op, because then the fight begins over who gets to measure inflation. Moreover, if the tracking isn't continuous (which it can't possibly be), during the 'between periods' there's wage devaluation which disproportionately affect the poor.

The WHOLE POINT of inflation is that it screws over wageearners:

https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/the-case-for-hi...

"even in the long run, it’s really, really hard to cut nominal wages. Yet when you have very low inflation, getting relative wages right would require that a significant number of workers take wage cuts. So having a somewhat higher inflation rate would lead to lower unemployment, not just temporarily, but on a sustained basis."

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by heurist on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @01:29AM (#13761710)
So the choices are wait for the economy to suddenly unfuck itself or give our lowest earners am immediate boost?
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by WillPostForFood on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @07:10PM (#13770069)
Turns out there are more than two choices, so no.

http://wiki.c2.com/?FalseDichotomy

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by astrange on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:31PM (#13760813)
It's more likely to give you money unless you're a lender and not a debtor.
Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by thinkpad20 on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:41PM (#13760881)
> Capitalism (in the free markets sense) is great. The problem is that gobs of money are stolen from poor people like me by the government

How much can the government be stealing from you if you have no money? The government is in a position to help you, by providing you with social services, with financial benefits, by providing police to protect you, not to mention debt forgiveness (you mentioned your family is in bankruptcy). None of these things come from free market capitalism; they come from socialist policies intended to help those at a disadvantage. And there should be more of that -- health care, education, etc. Of course, corruption and inefficiency in government exists and is a problem, but the ones stealing money from you are those at the top who are constantly seeking to pay less in taxes, do less to protect to the environment, lobby or contribute (aka bribe) to profit at the expense of public good, outsource or automate away their labor, etc. You mentioned the negative impact of common practices of bankers and Wall Street -- those kinds of things are natural consequence of free market activity.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by Clubber on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:04PM (#13761011)
>How much can the government be stealing from you if you have no money?

John Oliver did a good breakdown of how municipalities do pretty nasty things when you can't pay your tickets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UjpmT5noto

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dnautics on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @12:50AM (#13761520)
The family isn't literally in bankruptcy, and you have your history wrong. Bankruptcy reform is largely a consequence of mid 19th century classical liberal intellectual thought which shifted the onus of counterparty risk to the lender. One of the biggest proponents was Bentham, who could hardly be considered a socialist. Benjamin Tucker (whom it appears libertarians and socialists fight over intellectual ownership) was also a major proponent, but it's worth mentioning he was vehemently opposed to state involvement in socialism.

http://www.academia.edu/6681088/Washing_Away_the_Sins_of_Deb...

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by Mikeb85 on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:01PM (#13760996)
> the biggest of which is inflation

Inflation is a mechanism to prevent the rich from hoarding cash. The flipside is that people who aren't putting their money to use lose value.

Without inflation, the rich would hoard with impunity.

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by dnautics on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @12:41AM (#13761483)
That doesn't make any sense. If the rich hoard money the velocity of money goes down, and that causes the value to go down too.

As "mechanism to prevent hoarding" by the rich it's pretty shitty. The rich know how to protect their net worth from devaluating currency (e.g. real estate), and can more easily partake in leveraged investment vehicles which would not be possible with higher interest rates and non-inflationary base currency. You don't see the guy on the tenderloin buying leveraged etfs. For that matter neither does the middle class, who mostly are locked into managed find situations which provide low yield (if you look through to trough, the real value of the stock market has been static for 25 years)

Re:A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows by Mikeb85 on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @12:54AM (#13761546)
Taking money out of circulation (by saving it/not spending it) reduces supply, practically speaking, raising its value, causing deflation (price levels drop, cash becomes more valuable). This isn't controversial, it can be seen in recent history. Expansionary monetary policy (increasing the supply of money) = inflation, deflationary policy (reducing money supply) = deflation.

> That doesn't make any sense. If the rich hoard money the velocity of money goes down, and that causes the value to go down too.

'Velocity' of money is a shitty concept, but regardless what it means is that with higher velocity, goods and services are in higher demand relative to cash (more transactions over time). This increases price levels but reduces the value of cash.

So velocity going down decreases demand for and the value of goods and services (price levels), increasing the relative value of cash.