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Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tomp on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:40AM (#13706790)
I don't understand why one would point out a person's race (unless it's relevant to the situaiton), but since the title did...

I cannot fanthom how anyone could call this person "black". If anything, his complexion is similar to what US people call "hispanic" (although to me that's just southern European, not a distinct race).

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by monknomo on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:50AM (#13706897)
The guy is from the Caribbean. Race is always complex, but it is especially complex in the Caribbean.

How pale a person looks doesn't really have bearing on whether they consider themselves black. We don't know what his parents looked like, but they might have been fairly dark. We don't know what his sibling look like, but you'd be surprised at the variation there is. I have a black family friend and he has some blond grandchildren. Don't know if they consider themselves black, but they have a better claim to it as I have to consider myself Swedish.

I also think you're off on what the US considers hispanic. While many hispanic people have some southern European origin, the term really mean people from Mexico on south from a Spanish culture of any race or ethnicity. It's a little weird, but you can have hispanic black Dominicans and hispanic Indian Brazilians. Actual Spanish people probably aren't hispanic in the US sense, although I get different answers on that. Filipinos are another people difficult to slot into the standard US hispanic definition.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by bglazer on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:57AM (#13706966)
I can tell you why it's important to note the race of an underrepresented minority who made a notable contribution.

I teach programming to a group of black young adults. Self image is very important to most young folks. Just seeing other black people who are successful computer programmers helps them imagine themselves as computer programmers.

Identity matters to young people who are trying to shape their own self image.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by godshatter on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:25PM (#13707205)
I would have thought that it would have been more powerful for the article not to mention race, as it really doesn't except in the title, and just have the picture of the guy.

Why? Because then the article isn't trying to claim that one of the most notable things about him (notable enough to be in the title of the article) is his race. Young black people would see him being lauded for his work, regardless of any other aspect about him.

Otherwise, you end up with the idea that the article is saying "Hey look! A black person actually did something notable in tech!" Not the message you want to get across.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gragas on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:10PM (#13707073)
Then why is it strictly forbidden to write an article with a title that caters specifically to young white children?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by bglazer on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:42PM (#13707352)
I don't think I'll be able to do satisfactorily answer that question in a couple sentences, but I'll try.

White people are a majority in technology, so it's assumed to be obvious to white children that they too can be a technologist. There's not a significant gap in perceived identity between themselves and Mark Zuckerberg, for example.

So, that begs the question, why focus on encouraging specifically white children? They don't face racial barriers and have many famous role models. Preference for white people has a long and ugly history in America.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by leereeves on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @03:10PM (#13708748)
We probably need more white role models who didn't go to Harvard or Stanford, though.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by daysforbeef on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:05PM (#13707579)
> White people are a majority in technology

BS, have you seen us brown folks? we are literally the IT race. You could say white blokes are at a disadvantage. Point being, I feel kids should be taught their code and their core values are important, and should be also taught the art of not giving a shit about stuff that clearly doesn't matter. No black folks in tech? all the more reason to become a God

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tyingq on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:26PM (#13707216)
Ignoring whether it's forbidden, I'm not sure it's useful. I don't remember having some identity tied to being "white" as a child. I think white children are more likely to identify as being "Catholic" or "of French ancestry" or "poor" or "from Philly" or some other dimension apart from race.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gragas on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:38PM (#13707321)
If there is no identity tied to being white, then how are there hundreds upon hundreds of articles in WaPo and the New York Times which almost literally say "White Men Ruin the World" and contain detailed accounts of how white supremacy won Trump the presidency?

Either you're right, and white supremacy is not a problem at all, or you're wrong, and culture today has made it acceptable to say "fuck white men", which is disgustingly racist and yet no one is willing to publicly acknowledge it except "white supremacists" themselves.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tyingq on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:40PM (#13707336)
Sure, there's some white identity. I'm questioning if there's enough to market to it as a specific segment.

I'm also not convinced that xenophobia is the same thing as white identity.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by ikeyany on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:16PM (#13707671)
Young white children can see and relate to a large chunk of tech workers. Black people do not have that privilege. Have you noticed that young people generally achieve more when they can model themselves after those who are like them?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gragas on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:48PM (#13708037)
Sure, but why is it deemed racist to empower white children?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by ikeyany on Thursday February 23, 2017 @04:14AM (#13712615)
It's not, but do you really think they aren't empowered to begin with?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by Cenk on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:25PM (#13707202)
One could say that almost every article caters specifically to white people.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gragas on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:41PM (#13707344)
Why do you think so?

Could you not also say that almost every article caters specifically to Jewish people? Or would that be anti-Semitic in your mind?

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by lohengramm on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:43PM (#13707367)
Can you elaborate on that? Why is this so?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by pizza on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:21PM (#13707735)
it implies some of the following:

- whites are a non-diverse group of people

- whites (of all types, as a group) have been as historically unempowered as nonwhites in America

- whites think whiteness is underrepresented in America

- whites aren't bothered by how nonwhiteness affects outcomes

- messages about race are currently at peak broadcast capacity, so talking about race is a zero-sum game where prioritizing one audience takes a potential piece of information away another audience

- race is something other than ingroup/outgroup attribution

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gragas on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:40PM (#13707929)
>whites are a non-diverse group of people

Even if we assume that this is true (despite the fact that it's not) what does it have to do with printing articles with headlines that read "{INSERT NON-WHITE RACE HERE} miraculously succeeds in life!"?

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by pizza on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @03:21PM (#13708816)
I agree, none of those implications are true. That example causes discomfort because the logic is unsound but believed deeply by its proponents.

The reason people like headlines like that is that milestone accomplishments by minorities is inspiring.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tomp on Thursday February 23, 2017 @04:05AM (#13712591)
Wouldn't it be better to encourage kids to not be racist, and thus encourage them to take inspiration by people different from them (different race, men/women, etc)?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by kristianc on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:22PM (#13707170)
And I don't understand why, with such alarming, metronomic regularity, is there always someone who pops up and says that race is a non-issue and that we shouldn't mention it. Or even in this case, that we shouldn't recognize his blackness. I mean really - would you go and tell him he wasn't black to his face because his skin wasn't dark enough?

The guy's race matters because it's important that people from minorities see that people that look like them and sound like them can succeed. The guy's race matters because in the past history has been rewritten to give prominence to white faces even when black faces have carried out exactly the same roles [1]. It matters because they've had to overcome, in many instances, a system that is structurally biased against their success. And it matters because middle aged, white, heterosexual men, who completely coincidentally stand to gain the most from things staying as they are, are the ones who argue the loudest that we shouldn't recognize these structural biases. It matters because in order to succeed they have had to overcome obstacles that you haven't.

If you think that we are somehow overcompensating by even recognizing the color of someone's skin, perhaps you can also tell me why there were two BAME people in my year of four thousand people at Oxford. One of whom went to Eton.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Seacole

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tomp on Thursday February 23, 2017 @04:14AM (#13712620)
> would you go and tell him he wasn't black to his face because his skin wasn't dark enough?

Well, I wouldn't tell him, but I would definitely ask him if he claimed he was black. Then he would probably explain that he doesn't mean "black" as color but "black" as culture (same as "Jewish" religion vs. "Jewish" ethnicity) and that's fine.

> people that look like them and sound like them can succeed.

After a (semi-)black president, is this really still relevant?!

> why there were two BAME people in my year of four thousand people at Oxford

Maybe because Oxford is in England and England is predominantly white?

In general, I oppose such categorisations, because (1) they're racist, and in emphasizing race, they encourage other people to do so as well, and (2) race is far less relevant than other characteristics, in particular class (wealth), and by focusing on race, you're playing a divide-and-conquer game, making groups of people hate each other, while ignoring the most important inequality in existance. (Which, coincidentially, was the most likely cause of the discrepancy you saw at Oxford.)

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by kristianc on Thursday February 23, 2017 @03:52PM (#13717663)
> After a (semi-)black president, is this really still relevant?!

When the current President has committed to rolling back much of what said President achieved socially, economically and culturally, it's fair to say that Obama being elected wasn't the panacea people thought it would be.

> Maybe because Oxford is in England and England is predominantly white?

The number is off then by two orders of magnitude - and there are specific patterns of underachievement amongst black youth in England which exist when you control for other factors such as class and wealth. Black youngsters in the U.K. are twice as likely to be unemployed as white ones.

Focusing resources on the specific problems these communities face is not playing 'divide and conquer' any more than is providing specific support to LGBT communities who have a higher prevalence of mental health issues.

http://www.runnymedetrust.org/blog/how-black-young-men-are-o...

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tomp on Friday February 24, 2017 @05:23AM (#13722489)
Interesting article. However, I wonder what's really causing the difference in achievement - at first, it would seem that just skin color doesn't explain it, as Indians (also darker-skinned) outperform even whites (according to the article). In theory it's possible that they're being discriminated against (in a racist way) but they outperform despite that, though I've never seen any study that would suggest such genetic superiority (in terms of IQ). Could it be culture (Asians/Chinese are well known for their "Tiger moms", maybe Indians have a similar achievement-oriented culture), or possibly family wealth (Asians coming to study to the UK are more likely to be from wealthy families)? I'm really curious.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by kristianc on Friday February 24, 2017 @03:49PM (#13727762)
There's an attainment gap. It's definitely not genetic. It is partly cultural, and involves for instance the lack of positive black role models, visible success stories, the idea that succeeding is a 'white' thing to do.

One black guy being elected President doesn't solve that - you need to see examples of black guys as doctors, lawyers, computer scientists, engineers for it to work. Studies have shown that one of the greatest predictors of whether someone goes on to do a certain career is whether they or their family knows anyone in that profession.

That's why it's important and not 'racist' to proactively point out examples of successful black people. It's not that there aren't successful white people as well - they're visible everywhere, and we recognize them anyway (ever see the Oscars?). We do it because sadly the status quo leaves some people without black role models.

[dead]
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by wolfspider on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:24PM (#13707760)
Hopefully, your career doesn't include the use of any form of logic because by using your line of thinking many Asians and Inuits would be considered white? I think your probably the only person you really know.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by 08-15 on Thursday February 23, 2017 @11:36AM (#13715205)
Yes. Because white is a color, an caucasian is a race.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by austin_coder on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:53AM (#13706929)
The gender and racial identities of underrepresented populations is relevant to a whole host of readers, including researchers, educators, social scientists, etc. But beyond that, it's also relevant because the article references Black History Month and is even tagged with a "Black History Month" tag.

As far as why he is considered black, it's probably because someone found it economically advantageous to consider one or more of his ancestors black at some point in their history, and the norm was that a son of a slave was also a slave (i.e. "black"), regardless of complexion.

Relevant: https://psmag.com/why-your-race-isn-t-genetic-559908897f93#....

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by Cuuugi on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:47AM (#13706865)
1:) It's black history month, and he's black and part of history.

2:) That lighting makes his complexion look much lighter.

3:) If they say he's black, i'll take their word for it, skin colour varies significantly.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by pizza on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:21PM (#13707156)
> Researchers also offer alternatives to the color-blindness discourse. Reason and Evans call for people to become "racially cognizant", that is they need to acknowledge the role that race plays in their everyday lives. Being racially cognizant also demands a continuous examination and reinterpretation of race and how it affects our lives. It is also important to balance looking at a person as an individual and acknowledging the role their membership to a social group plays in their daily lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness_(race)_in_the_...

As to how someone could call them black... "it's not the color of your skin, it's the race of your kin"

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by 08-15 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:14PM (#13707659)
> reinterpretation of race

In other words "making up shit". It's time to stop listening to this bullshit.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by sctb on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @04:20PM (#13709257)
Please stop posting uncivilly and unsubstantively. We're trying to have thoughtful, insightful discussion, and name calling doesn't help us get there.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by noobermin on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:19PM (#13707136)
>I don't understand why one would point out a person's race (unless it's relevant to the situaiton). [sic]

The first two sentences of the article says

>At a time when “googling” has become the generic term for conducting an internet search, it can be hard to remember that search had a long history before Google came along. But it’s worth revisiting that past during Black History Month, because the pre-Google era saw one of the most momentous black contributions to the development of the internet: the invention of internet search itself, by Alan Emtage.

Emphasis mine.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by dbaupp on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:46AM (#13706853)
It is Black History Month in the US, as the very first paragraph of the article says.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:54PM (#13707475)
"Black" as a racial label or identity is only tangentially connected with complexion (or even predominant ancestry, because cultural attitudes of race are shaped by history, including in the US specifically, the One Drop Rule [0].)

Effectively, racial labels and identities are more about ethnicity (that is shared cultural identity [on the identity side] or shared ascribed kind of "otherness" [from the imposed labelling side]) than biology (either phenotype and genotype), though the latter influences the former.

(And "hispanic" is explicitly an ethnic label/identity, which applies to people ranging from completely European descent to completely African descent to descent completely from the indigenous peoples of South and/or Central America, and every possible combination in between, as well as some others.)

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by Kinnard on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:05PM (#13707570)
Are you american? The term isn't used to describe skin color per se, but to classify someone as a member of a certain group with attendant right/privileges and cultural traits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

Recently 'blacks' weren't allowed in certain venues/institutions and were required to take a generally subservient stance vis a vis 'whites'. White also receive(d) preference for admittance to the country and citizenship.

The non-denotative nature of the language is well-discussed: http://forward.com/opinion/318667/im-a-mizrahi-jew-do-i-coun...

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:05PM (#13707572)
> I don't understand why one would point out a person's race (unless it's relevant to the situaiton)

If you read the first paragraph of the article, you'd know that his race is the reason the article was published:

At a time when “googling” has become the generic term for conducting an internet search, it can be hard to remember that search had a long history before Google came along. But it’s worth revisiting that past during Black History Month, because the pre-Google era saw one of the most momentous black contributions to the development of the internet: the invention of internet search itself, by Alan Emtage.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by whatever_dude on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:55AM (#13706946)
While I agree 100% the US and most of the Western world has a weird definition of "black", I think the photo in the article is just unlucky lighting. If you look at the guy's photos on Google Images [1] it's clear he has mixed features that are commonly associated with Caribbean blacks.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=Alan+Emtage&source=lnms&tbm=...

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by garysieling on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:51AM (#13706906)
It comes from a legal tradition-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gpawl on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:12PM (#13707078)
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by SolaceQuantum on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:42AM (#13706812)
Black in this context is a race, which is an extremely broad spectrum of ethnicities and nationalities of various skin tones.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by weberc2 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:49AM (#13706882)
In any case, I don't know anyone who would consider this man to be black. Perhaps it's the lighting or angle of the photo?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by SolaceQuantum on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:40PM (#13707334)
Well, like I said. Black is a race, not necessarily a skin tone but mostly identified as a complex and arbitrary delineation of class, nationality, ethnicity, and general skin tone as the easiest identifier but not necessarily the qualifier. I have a white friend who's tan as hell, and studied under a woman from South Africa who was about as tan as my friend. The woman was considered a black woman, while my friend was considered a white man, even though their skin tones were similar.

Life is full of such arbitrary nuance and complexity.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by weberc2 on Monday February 27, 2017 @01:19PM (#13746415)
I wasn't speaking about skin tone, but also physical features indicative of African descent. At any rate, in the United States (which is the context of the holiday), class, nationality, and ethnicity don't contribute to perceptions of race; it's effectively the presence or absence of indigenous African physical traits, skin-tone being but one example. Perhaps class, nationality, and ethnicity could be used in 'tie-breaker' cases where race isn't visibly apparent, but that's the extent.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by pessimizer on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:53AM (#13706931)
Is who you know relevant?
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by weberc2 on Monday February 27, 2017 @01:31PM (#13746534)
Yes, because it's a sample of human racial perceptions, but at any rate "who I know" isn't the sample I quoted, it was "who I know of", and the latter is a larger sample than the former. Further, "who I know of" is a pretty good informal indicator given that I know of mostly Americans (and a particularly diverse group of Americans at that). Perhaps you mean "is this sample statistically significant?", in which case the answer is "No, and I never pretended otherwise".
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by zyx321 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:46PM (#13707393)
Not to mention that (as of 2016) Black People don't even exist any more. Everyone who previously was "Black" is now "of Color".

A Black Technologist is an expert in Black (=incomprehensible to laypeople) Technology. Since we're talking about search engines, I figure that's accurate enough.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by tomp on Thursday February 23, 2017 @04:18AM (#13712635)
That's as silly redefinition of language. And racist as well - unless white people are also "people of color" (technically, we're not white, but yellow-pink or something).
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by zyx321 on Friday February 24, 2017 @05:12PM (#13728415)
Sorry. I'm being overly cynical.

But it seems that "people of color" is the hot new Politically Correct term for black people (or non-white people depending on who you ask). Do not ask me why.

Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gmarx on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:47AM (#13706860)
The article is for Black History Month, a...holiday? here in the US which I think is now called "African American History Month". So does a guy from Barbados working in Canada not count now? I'm not good at that kind of math
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by chickenfries on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:56AM (#13706950)
If you're genuinely confused and not trolling, it's okay to use black as an adjective. African American is okay too if they are that, but the 90s trend of referring to everyone black as AA is over.
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by gmarx on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @06:18PM (#13710201)
Not trolling. I think you either call it African American History month and write stuff about blacks who were descended from American slaves or you call it Black History Month in which case the inclusion of a Barbadan(?) working in Canada makes more sense
Re:The Black Technologist Who Invented the First Internet Se... by maxerickson on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:56AM (#13706958)
Neither "Black" nor "Hispanic" are used strictly as races in the US. They both largely refer to heritage.