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Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by bluetomcat on Monday February 13, 2017 @09:56AM (#13635643)
Back in the 1990s, NATO reconnaissance aircraft didn't stop flying over Russia, although Gorbachev and Yeltsin were quite friendly to the US. Post-2000 Putin's Russia is a result of the West's decline to treat it with respect. The arms race was started again and additionally fueled by the expansion of NATO in Eastern Europe.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by fictioncircle on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:34AM (#13635989)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies

Signed in 1992. C'mon now, Russia is even complaining about NATO members refusing flights under it as recently as 2016. The USSR agreed to it before its dissolution and Russia re-signed in 2002.

> The Open Skies regime covers the territory over which the State Party exercises sovereignty, including land, islands, and internal and territorial waters. The treaty specifies that the entire territory of a State Party is open to observation. Observation flights may only be restricted for reasons of flight safety; not for reasons of national security.

> The 34 State Parties to the Open Skies Treaty are: Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and United States.

Hell Russia is complaining about Turkey not following it as recently as last year:

> Russian Defence Ministry spokesman stated on 4 February 2016 that Turkey had refused a Russian Open Skies mission, planned to take place in 1–5 February 2016, to fly over areas adjacent to Syria, as well as over NATO airbases. According to Russia, Turkey gave no explanation regarding the limitations, and claimed them to indicate illegal military activity in Syrian territory.[8] The OSCC haven't commented on the alleged violation of the Treaty by Turkey.[9]

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by wbl on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:03AM (#13635706)
Do you know about Open Skies treaty? Russia actually wanted surveillance flights as they are the best way of assuring people "yes, my troops are not massing on the frontier"
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by geoka9 on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:04AM (#13635717)
Well, "treating Russia with respect" to Russia means "let us do with our neighbouring countries as we please regardless of their wishes". So of course _that_ had to be declined.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by bluetomcat on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:16AM (#13635821)
And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands?
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by fictioncircle on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:31AM (#13635958)
> And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Argentine_invasi...

Argentina literally invaded the Falkland Islands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_status_refere...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_r...

They've also repeatedly voted to remain within the UK by an overwhelming margin. One has to wonder what your agenda is that you'd claim the Falklands is in the same category as Iraq or Afghanistan.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by _b8r0 on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:34AM (#13635990)
1. The Falkland Islands are British territories. They are British because the population are British citizens and have repeatedly made it clear they wish to remain so.

2. The UK has never gone to war with the Falkland Islands. Argentina invaded the Falkands in 1982.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by owebmaster on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:50AM (#13636122)
1. Just like Crimea?
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by a-saleh on Monday February 13, 2017 @11:43AM (#13636610)
Are you suggesting that "Krym is Russian teritory" in a same way "Falklands are a British territory" ?

Are you suggesting that Ukraine invaded Krym and Russia had to respond?

I think that is flat out wrong.

I am not saying that you can't be of an opinion that invasion of Falklands was not justified and annexation of Krym was. I am just saying that these two incidents are not comparable.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by crdoconnor on Monday February 13, 2017 @12:22PM (#13636951)
A) Most Crimeans are ethnically Russians, B) The vote was ~94% to join Russia and was done in the presence of international observers (Ukraine didn't challenge the results of the election they challenged it on the basis that it was unconstitutional) and C) the invasion was a reaction to an elected president who represented their interests being deposed.

Regardless of whom you believe is correct, the Russians kinda demonstrated more respect for Democracy with respect to Crimea than the West did.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by geoka9 on Monday February 13, 2017 @01:06PM (#13637347)
> Regardless of whom you believe is correct, the Russians kinda demonstrated more respect for Democracy with respect to Crimea than the West did.

You mean the referendum, not election? Yeah, "kinda", just enough for some people to be able to say something like this (and even that not with a straight face).

To say there was any "respect for democracy" is a joke. Girkin (leader of the Russian military squad that seized the Crimean Parliament building) later went on record saying that his soldiers basically had to force the parliament members into the building in the middle of the night and make them "vote" for the referendum (you can imagine what would've happened to those who'd refused)[1]

The referendum date itself had been changed several times (if I remember correctly, from 2 months to 1 month to 2 weeks). You can't force an issue like that in 2 weeks and claim "respect for democracy". In fact, both of the questions asked at the referendum meant secession from Ukraine; i.e. it wasn't a simple "yes" or "no", it was essentially "secede immediately" or "do it a bit later". And, even if that hadn't been the case, for anybody to vote against it, they'd have to risk being abducted and killed by the pro-Russian militia[2][3][4]

http://empr.media/news/russian-fsb-colonel-admits-crimean-mp...

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/12/disappeari...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11S2Vhkr-bc

http://en.sobytiya.info/crimean-tatar-activist-kidnapped-in-...

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by owebmaster on Monday February 13, 2017 @02:14PM (#13637875)
I'm suggesting that the Ilhas Malvinas (not Falkland Island) is an argentinian territory occupied by force. Put a lot of british people there is not difficult, neither ask the argentinians there to pretend they are europeans.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by andybak on Monday February 13, 2017 @11:37AM (#13636563)
Whilst a hypothetical (and impossible in practise) fair referendum in Crimea prior to the Russian takeover might have shown some support, I doubt it would have been a landslide if it was even a victory. The Falklands however - would have voted 100% to remain part of Britain. It's a silly comparison in many ways but you can't get away with the statement you just made.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by owebmaster on Monday February 13, 2017 @02:21PM (#13637924)
If you ask to a lot of cities, states and islands at the times if they wanted to be part of Bitrain, most would. This is not how sovereign limits should be deal.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by fictioncircle on Monday February 13, 2017 @11:45AM (#13636622)
So...90% of Crimeans voted to join the USSR in a fair and open election with international observers?
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by owebmaster on Monday February 13, 2017 @02:19PM (#13637907)
And to leave
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by fictioncircle on Monday February 13, 2017 @02:35PM (#13638025)
Evidence?

A) No international observers were allowed.

B) Russia President’s Human Rights Council mid-point estimate: 55 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 40 percent, 22.5 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor.

C) Falklands was a UK territory, not invaded, and had free & fair elections with 90% in favor because they were scared of Argentina trying to annex them. Pretty much the opposite situation on all points. But please, go ahead and show evidence I am wrong ;)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/p...

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by owebmaster on Monday February 13, 2017 @03:02PM (#13638239)
I love when people think the results they like are fair election and the others are rigged.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by fictioncircle on Monday February 13, 2017 @03:06PM (#13638264)
> I love when people think the results they like are fair election and the others are rigged.

So you don't have any evidence and Russia was caught red handed that they lied about the results...and that is your response? LOL. K.

Look, when you get caught lying about the election...yeah, people tend to believe the fact you are lying when it benefits you.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by owebmaster on Monday February 13, 2017 @03:54PM (#13638671)
Fake News.

Look, I don't mind agreeing with you that Russia invaded and annexed a part of Ukraine. But what in this situation makes it inherently different from the malvine islands war and annexation? Just the links? Someone could think that your reasoning is unrealiably biased, and get back to the question of Ukraine and Russia and get some doubts if it is really a good reasoning (Russia annexed a past part of itself) or just common sense prejudice against some causes. I could almost say beforehand what is your opinion about Israel and the Palestina state.

[dead]
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by dang on Tuesday February 14, 2017 @12:24AM (#13641368)
Please stop posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments to HN. We ban accounts that do that repeatedly.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by fictioncircle on Tuesday February 21, 2017 @01:32PM (#13698065)
Go ahead. I'll stop using it.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by _b8r0 on Monday February 20, 2017 @03:27AM (#13685469)
No, nothing like Crimea.

The Falkland Islands were British territories in 1982 when Argentina invaded. The Crimea was Ukrainian territory in 2014 when it was Annexed by Russia.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by cabalamat on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:27AM (#13635922)
> And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq or Afghanistan

The USA hasn't tried to annex parts of those countries.

> the UK going to war with the "neighbouring" Falkland Islands

Most countries would fight a war if their territory was invaded.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by nitrogen on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:46AM (#13636095)
The USA hasn't tried to annex parts of those countries.

Do military bases count?

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by seppin on Monday February 13, 2017 @11:07AM (#13636281)
No, they exist under legal authority of host nation.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by a-saleh on Monday February 13, 2017 @11:48AM (#13636646)
That can be more complicated, based on what I heard about i.e. Guantanamo Bay, where technically the Cuban goverment would really like the USA army to leave, and USA pretends they have a lease and that everything is fine.

I am not sure if there are other examples, though.

Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by AnimalMuppet on Monday February 13, 2017 @01:29PM (#13637512)
Well, the previous Cuban government gave the US permission for the base at Guantanamo Bay. Then the Cuban Revolution happened. The US does not have permission from the current Cuban government, but is holding it to the agreements made by its predecessor.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by cabalamat on Tuesday February 14, 2017 @07:46PM (#13648769)
That's a grey area.
Re:Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End by portpecos on Monday February 13, 2017 @10:39AM (#13636034)
>And how is that different from the US intervening in "non-neighbouring" countries like Iraq

Because the US is a hero for liberating the Iraqi people.