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Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by anjc on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:59AM (#13615774)
Oh Phones are gone. Finito. But they weren't a few years ago. They were taking a sharp incline with the 9xx range of Lumias in Europe, and they only declined when Microsoft whipped all Lumias from stores and released nothing for a year, the 950 range, which they stopped supporting before they'd even stopped selling it. W10M is effectively still in beta and there are no phones to use it now.

But in the meantime they'd been pushing Continuum, W10/Phone integration, UWP, Xbox/Phone integration and so on. So removing phones tarnished a large chunk of their product line imo. Same for the Band. There's no competitor to it, still, and it's also gone. Same for Kinect. Same for Onedrive subscriptions, etc etc.

This is what worries me about Nadella's MS and it's the same thing that worries me about Cook's Apple...treating the product line like commodities without acknowledging the importance of the ecosystem.

Having said that, as you say, they're a big company. My perspective is solely from that of a devices user.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by simonh on Friday February 10, 2017 @11:03AM (#13616279)
>Oh Phones are gone. Finito. But they weren't a few years ago.

I doubt he had much choice. WP can't exist just for the sake of it. Yes they were increasing market share, but at what cost? If you're losing money on each phone sold and if the amount you're losing is linear with each sale because you're effectively buying the sales, selling more is a road to catastrophe. Gaining WP market share would only be worthwhile if there is a path to profitability. I don't know this was the situation for a fact, but it seems likely.

>...treating the product line like commodities without acknowledging the importance of the ecosystem.

Right, so the argument is WP was worth subsidizing because it supports the rest of the ecosystem. But suppose supporting the rest of the ecosystem was better served by integrating it with competitor's products? Hence Office for iOS, etc. At which point WP just becomes a boat anchor round their necks. I don't think there was any possible future in which it was worth the costs.

In your analysis dropping the product was irrational. I don't think it was, but must admit I'm only speculating as to the reasons. I'd love to know the reality.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by anjc on Friday February 10, 2017 @11:33AM (#13616613)
Well to be more precise, I suppose my position is that if MS want to increase their product userbase, they need a vanguard of advocates who promote their products far and wide. In the early days of Apple's resurgence, this would've been the graphic designers, musicians, developers, and so on. I think that the advocates that have pushed new MS products are, again, developers and graphic designers and so on, who have transitioned to MS over the last 4 or so years due to their new products suiting their needs (digitizer etc).

My own perception is that their haphazard treatment of their product line has tarnished the sentiment in these communities. It's one thing to phase out phones, but to suddenly drop them in the same year as an amazing keynote in which they promoted the Band and Phones as being central to the platform, at the same time that you're pushing OS updates...it's not pleasant when you've bought into that vision.

Phones might not have been worth the cost in an accounting sense, but if they've lost platform advocates then it could affect their good progress.

Like you though, I'm just speculating and would love to know the politics behind it.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by pjmlp on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:08AM (#13615847)
> Oh Phones are gone. Finito.

They are doing ok with hybrid tablets though. Here in Germany it started to be more common to see hybrid tablets with W10 than Android on the retail stores.

So I still have some (tiny) hope of them succeeding with phablets with SIM card on them.

In any case, I am more willing to just adopt one of my Lumias when my S3 dies, than sponsoring OEMs that never update their devices.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by ghaff on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:43AM (#13616098)
People I know with Surface Pros really like them. I'd consider one myself except that

- They're too pricey for a casual "I'll give it a try"

- I don't otherwise use Microsoft anything any longer

- For travel, I'm pretty much sold on Chromebooks which are easier to type on with no table and just my lap.

But arguably Microsoft has done a better job of bringing together laptops and tablets for creation of typical business content than anyone.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by pjmlp on Friday February 10, 2017 @02:25PM (#13618096)
Here in Europe I see Surfaces at every retail store, while Chromebooks tend to only be available online, sometimes I do spot one on the stores.

However I don't like them, personally I think they could have been a better proposal if Google had decided to leverage Dart, and offer a Smalltalk environment on them. Even if that required some kind of developer mode.

As it is, my trusty Eee PC 1215B is what I use for travelling.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by ghaff on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:09PM (#13618455)
I suspect a lot more marketing/co-marketing dollars go into the Surface from Microsoft than go into Chromebooks from Google and the device manufacturers.

My sense is that education is the only market where Chromebooks have been pushed at all aggressively. Like many things Google does, it's not clear that they have a really fleshed out strategy for the Chromebook.

They're also not really targeted for doing local development though people do use them in various somewhat unnatural ways.

Although they can't do everything I can do on my MacBook, they're often suitable for my needs when traveling and I appreciate the small size of the Asus Flip.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by scholia on Friday February 10, 2017 @04:03PM (#13618864)
The Chromebook is pretty much failing outside the US education market, where there were non-technical reasons behind its success. Also, schools don't buy them retail.

The OEM trend is to design for Windows 10 and then offer a version of the same hardware as a Chromebook. This is a tough sale as people expect Chromebooks to be cheaper but they are not.

[They are not cheaper for two reasons. (1) OEMs pay very little for Windows 10 and they get a lot of that back by bundling crapware. (2) The Chromebook adds costs in hardware qualification and drivers etc, plus stockkeeping, distribution and advertising costs. The advertising cost is significant because Microsoft provides 'advertising support' for ads that promote Windows, but not Chromebooks.]

EDIT

Chromebooks were cheaper, back in the days when Windows laptops had 4GB of RAM and hard drives. Today, cheap Windows laptops have 2GB of RAM and 32GB or 64GB eMMC cards, so the Chromebook's price advantage has gone or even been reversed.

In any case, schools can easily set up Windows machines so that kids can ONLY run a browser and nothing else. See Windows 10 Education AppLocker.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by scholia on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:54PM (#13618800)
> So I still have some (tiny) hope of them succeeding with phablets with SIM card on them.

Coming later this year, with SnapDragon ARM chips inside, and the ability to run x86 desktop programs if necessary.

There will be tablets and 2-in-1s. The key point is that the SnapDragon SoC -- unlike Atom SoCs -- is built for smartphones with SIM cards inside.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by anjc on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:10AM (#13615863)
I still want a 950XL even though I know I'll regret it :/

Poor MS. I really feel that their lack of commitment to their platform can't be construed as 'focus', and might come back to haunt them.

Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by pjmlp on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:30AM (#13616013)
By following Microsoft blogs, articles, BUILD presentations among other sources, I get the idea that this whole mess, going back to WP 7, was once again the result of their political wars between DevTools and Windows division.
Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by anjc on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:37AM (#13616060)
Oh that's interesting. I suppose any internal conflict ultimately comes down to issues of leadership and vision, regardless of the company size.
Re:How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft by pjmlp on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:48PM (#13619600)
I might be completely wrong, and everything I wrote in this comment is not correct, but this is how I saw it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13069181#13071212