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Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by educar on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @05:01PM (#13593292)
Those who are privacy conscious must first take the step towards self-hosting. They are many interesting approaches that are trying to make self-hosting practical. They make it trivial to run your own mail server, keep your contacts/calendar/files/notes. Why trust yet another mail/cloud company (yahoo, anyone?)? There are promising existing projects out there (like cloudron.io, sandstorm.io, yunohost). Go try them out today. The projects are open source and have issue trackers where you can contribute even if you are not a developer. Such solutions will empower the average person in the future.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by schoen on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:37PM (#13595490)
Self-hosting has a severe metadata tradeoff. Suppose that you and I each self-host a mail server. Now we e-mail each other to talk about how great decentralization is and how much we both hate wiretapping.

With self-hosting and SMTP, there is now a very clear TCP metadata record showing how my home IP address connected on port 25 to your home IP address. Maybe the next day you write back, and there's another nice clear metadata record showing your address connecting to me. Now any ISP between us, and anyone who can tap the ISPs' cables, knows that you and I are corresponding.

If we were both using Gmail, this metadata pattern would pretty much not appear at all: we would each make an HTTPS connection to Gmail and exchange a bunch of data, and while in principle my upload would be matched in size by your download, it would be extraordinarily noisy in many ways and hard to correlate in practice. On the other hand, Gmail would know everything about us.

Having Gmail know everything about us is clearly terrible and not a good privacy solution. However, having all of the ISPs be able to learn our detailed correspondence patterns and relationships is also clearly terrible and not a good privacy solution. So, self-hosting being a clear privacy win for messaging will require a lot of technical improvements on the metadata front. It isn't a clear win in this respect today; it most likely depends on whether you see ISPs (and people who can compromise or coerce them) or Google (and people who can compromise or coerce them) as a bigger risk overall.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by Spooky23 on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @12:12AM (#13595935)
Not really. Google can monetize your information much easier than an ISP.

Self hosting puts you in control, which means you have potentially more safety so long as you manage risk. Physical custody of your data is very valuable. The metadata thing is more of a theoretical risk.

Embrace the fact that email is not ephemeral and can end up in the wrong hands from your perspective. The other party that you're communicating with is a far more likely leak than some rogue ISP or police action.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by nbraud on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:29AM (#13598409)
> Google can monetize your information much easier than an ISP.

More to the point: Google is a more central actor, who gets to see the data of far more users, than your ISP ever will.

Moreover, this moves from giving a third party your data, to giving them your metadata, and while people consistently underestimate the value of metadata, there is still an incremental improvement there.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by Eridrus on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @10:06AM (#13598711)
But in the context of privacy is power, who is your real adversary? Clearly it is the state. And they have shown time and again that they are watching all ISP traffic, with their consent, whereas Google is making a sincere effort to resist.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by daurnimator on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:07PM (#13595664)
I feel like using something like TOR would help here: it would create a background noise of other traffic while also providing a way for other users to not have to connect directly to the remote server.

So I ask: is there a way to provide an optional TOR endpoint? e.g. can I have an MX record with high priority that points to a .onion address, and then have a backup (with lower priority) that points to the normal global IP?

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by nbraud on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:40AM (#13598497)
I'm not sure MX records would work without either modifying SMTP servers or using Tor in transparent proxy mode.

Postfix, for instance, has [transport maps](http://www.postfix.org/transport.5.html), but those let you pick a transport based on the email domain, not the MX host.

Right now, some people use [onionmx](https://github.com/ehloonion/onionmx), which maintains both a [static mapping](https://github.com/ehloonion/onionmx/blob/master/sources/map...) from domains to onion services, and a dynamic one using [SRV records](https://github.com/ehloonion/onionmx/blob/master/SRV.md).

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by schoen on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @01:50PM (#13600894)
Currently there is no support for this in MTA software. If it were supported, you could imagine having somewhat better privacy properties for e-mail with other people who also used this particular setup. However, if you simply re-decentralize your e-mail using today's e-mail technology, you won't get those benefits in the short term.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by daurnimator on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @07:34PM (#13603586)
Why would you need software for it in the MTA? Use a local resolver with tor's dns option + automapping
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by palunon on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @05:26AM (#13597221)
You can of course provide MX records of different priorities.

I think the difficult part is getting outbound MTAs to actually understand that a .onion domain shouldn't be looked up over DNS.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by daurnimator on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @07:32AM (#13597742)
> I think the difficult part is getting outbound MTAs to actually understand that a .onion domain shouldn't be looked up over DNS.

If you're running a local tor-compatible resolver they should be!

However according to RFC 7686 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7686: "Applications that do not implement the Tor protocol SHOULD generate an error upon the use of .onion and SHOULD NOT perform a DNS lookup"

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by deep_attention on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @01:00AM (#13596164)
How about https://ring.cx/, based on peer-to-peer discovery and connection?
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by adrianN on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @06:23AM (#13597431)
If you want anonymous mails setting up a normal server isn't good enough. You'd need an anonymous remailer like Mixminion to get even a basic level of privacy. But development on anonymous mail software has stalled ten years ago. There doesn't seem to be much interest.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by educar on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:34PM (#13595777)
This seems like an argument for argument sake. Our ISPs (not mine anyway) doesn't learn our detailed correspondence patterns. Google does. It reads my email and throws out ads. Seems trivial to decide who respects my privacy more.

Also, if ISPs are "tapped", you have a problem at the government level. IMO, privacy issues and government intrusion are not something technology can beat. Forget home servers and decentralization and usb sticks - If it's in your head, any determined government will waterboard that information out of you.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by schoen on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @01:56PM (#13600942)
I actually don't use Gmail for partly the reasons you mention, so I'm not at all unsympathetic to your view!

However, I tend to think of governmental privacy threats as the most important ones, and I assume that many other people in this discussion (and in the community of people who strongly advocate decentralization) share that perspective. Your prioritization is sensible if you're much more concerned with corporate monitoring (especially if you live in a jurisdiction with effective data protection legislation).

You might also want to consider people who live under extremely violent or repressive governments, whose concern with government as a threat actor may be easier to sympathize with. They're probably better off in the short term with something like Google because Google will likely resist data requests from their governments, while the ISPs (being local and sometimes state-owned) will likely not resist those requests. While they can't resist every surveillance or coercion scenario, it's easy to imagine that they can fly under the radar easily by using Gmail if it's popular where they live and they aren't doing other things online that the government finds interesting.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by germinalphrase on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:41PM (#13595513)
So be abandon the wires and build an alternative internet?
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by schoen on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @02:09PM (#13601060)
Pretty expensive, and governments won't be more reluctant to tap the undersea parts and try to compel people to help them tap third parties, right?
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by germinalphrase on Thursday February 09, 2017 @09:08AM (#13606967)
Assuming there are undersea cables to tap, yes. Wouldn't this be a key element (for good or bad) of satellite/dirigible/balloon served internet - the ability to create a separate series of internet services?
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by schoen on Thursday February 09, 2017 @03:03PM (#13610386)
How can you safely use a satellite or balloon (over the radio spectrum) if you can't safely use an undersea cable?

(This isn't purely a rhetorical question; maybe the balloon can be more tamper-evident than an undersea cable would be, or maybe the model for where link-layer or network-layer encryption can be applied could be more transparent or more controlled by a user or customer. But overall, it's tricky to explain why using RF, which there are tons of spy facilities worldwide and even in space to intercept, is safer than using an undersea cable.)

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by anigbrowl on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @06:08PM (#13593864)
Are you sure about this? 20 years ago I was running a then-novel Linux machine with my own email etc. etc. but eventually I stopped because on the whole it wasn't worth all the effort.

I know perfectly well, from experience, that I could vastly increase my privacy (or reduce the huge volume of information that I choose or passively accept liability for sharing, eg by having a FB account and not logging out of it every time I go to another tab etc. etc.). But how much of my time do I want to spend on opsec?

I don't want to be in a defensive posture for the rest of my life, hiding from bad actors and constantly worrying about some overlooked chink in my digital armor. Frankly, if the future is endless low-grade cyberwarfare I'd rather be on the offensive and steal other people's data for my own advantage than be endlessly upgrading my door locks.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by educar on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @06:30PM (#13594070)
Well, have you checked out the platforms I linked? This is the whole point of the self-hosting platforms. They don't want you to put in the effort any more than buying a phone. You install apps and leave the security to the platform. At this point, this is really about how good the platform gets in insulating the user. If you feel like an early adopter, go try those platforms.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by anigbrowl on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @06:44PM (#13594191)
I will and I appreciate the effort and care you took to explain them.

I guess I'm just jaded because I've been through so many cycles of 'this will automate your security needs' followed by 'every system can be gamed' a couple of years later - much as Phil Zimmerman commented The natural flow of technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months.

Nowadays I worry less about my privacy on the assumption that it's probably hopelessly compromised anyway, and more about being able to hold an unpopular position or opinion without official interference. For example I think it's far more important that gay people enjoy full civil rights, be able to marry etc. than they had better privacy tools that would allow them to remain in the closet indefinitely.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by _tulpa on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:21PM (#13595410)
>For example I think it's far more important that gay people enjoy full civil rights, be able to marry etc. than they had better privacy tools that would allow them to remain in the closet indefinitely.

That's like saying that having 100% uptime and zero failures is more important than having backups. Sure the former would be ideal but in reality that answer doesn't cut it. Sure civil rights and free speech and personal autonomy are ideal, but over here in the real world there are a lot of people who still have to hide to avoid bad stuff happening to them.

I also don't think you can use 'automate' and 'security' like in the previous paragraph and expect good results.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by notduncansmith on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:58PM (#13595880)
To clarify: many concepts that we today accept as part of the natural order of things would get you killed if discussed in earlier times. We don't know what things that could get you in trouble today will turn out to be facts taken for granted in future cultures, but in order for that evolution to take place, there must be a safe way to discuss unpopular (especially to the extent of being dangerous) ideas. If the people behind any great historical revolution had been unable to discuss their ideas safely, it's reasonable to assume it might never have happened.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by educar on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:50PM (#13595845)
You should learn to multi-task :-) But seriously, we all prioritize and fight for things what we care deeply about. In the end, I live in a better world thanks to people like you who fight for civil rights.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:11PM (#13601574)
Thanks, though I don't want to present myself as any kind of leader in this area.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by HerraBRE on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:22AM (#13598364)
Consider that without privacy, people fighting for civil rights may be unable to safely coordinate and organize themselves well enough to make progress.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:09PM (#13601552)
I'm not arguing that privacy isn't important, but if I have to make a choice, it's not my highest priority in every context.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by Silhouette on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:59PM (#13595882)
They make it trivial to run your own mail server, keep your contacts/calendar/files/notes.

Sadly, no, they don't. The lack of easily installed and good quality self-hosting options is probably the single biggest barrier to more people doing this. Most people don't use Google Mail because they're particularly fond of Google; they use it because it's convenient.

Running a real mail server (an SMTP host), in contrast, is certainly not something for the faint-hearted.

Running a mail store, with some sort of automatic fetching from an ISP or third party mail server and some sort of forwarding to send mail via that server, is a bit more practical for those who don't want a full-time job. Then you can provide things like IMAP or webmail access on top. Even so, it's still prohibitively difficult to actually get it set up and working reliably if you're not already a reasonably experienced system administrator, particularly if you don't have a dedicated machine to run it so you can't just install someone's turnkey package that assumes it can install or modify whatever it wants.

If you believe this is not the case, I invite you to link to some instructions that could reasonably be followed even by someone who is generally technically competent (but not an expert sysadmin) so they could host their own mail, contacts and calendar locally instead of using something like Google Mail. I suggest that no such instructions currently exist.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by educar on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @12:19AM (#13595969)
For email, cloudron has a built-in email server (it's poorly advertised) - https://cloudron.io/get.html#selfhost . You can then read up https://cloudron.io/references/selfhosting.html#email. Install rainloop for web ui.

For contacts, calendar, just install the ownCloud or nextCloud app. On android, https://davdroid.bitfire.at/ works great.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by bigbugbag on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:20AM (#13596723)
> The lack of easily installed and good quality self-hosting options is probably the single biggest barrier to more people doing this.

Ever heard of mail-in-a-box[1] ?

[1]: https://mailinabox.email/

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by Silhouette on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @05:45AM (#13597306)
That was actually exactly what I had in mind when I mentioned turnkey packages.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by bubblethink on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @04:01AM (#13596878)
This is highly impractical, and possibly even detrimental to your privacy/security. For one, most people are simple not qualified for such an undertaking, but that's probably not the biggest problem. It's the people who may think that they are qualified and may follow your advice and self-host. Some exceptions aside, almost nobody should put anything up on the internet unless they've done it in some professional capacity before. It's a fallacy to think that an average Joe can push a button and replace Google by paying 10-20 bucks a month to a cloud provider. For most people, a better solution is to use services like signal or protonmail/tutanota (at least until end-to-end email matures, at which point other big players will support it too)
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by cJ0th on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @09:00AM (#13598192)
This is not a solution to the real problem: social networks having in-depth knowledge about the whole population.

By all means, I don't want to discourage anyone from self-hosting. The problem is: There will always be agents (private people or companies) who leak information about others (on purpose or because of a lack of concern) which allows shadow profiling of people who want to opt out. Furthermore, these agents don't necessarily grasp the dangers which the disclosure of their social network brings for them.

What we need are stronger laws as to what social networks (and other services) are allowed to store. For instance, FB shouldn't be allowed to know anything about me without me consenting to it.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by kordless on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:12PM (#13595687)
Public has its benefits. So does private. It's only when they work together that you get the optimal solution.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by wfunction on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @02:19AM (#13596464)
If I self-host (as painful as that is), what happens when my internet goes down randomly (or my computer has to reboot, or whatever)? Should all incoming emails really be dropped with anβ€Œ "oops, try again later" message to the sender?

I sure as hell wouldn't want that.

There are lots of hidden costs to self-hosting...

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by holri on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:12AM (#13596693)
"oops, try again later" is not what is happening when your mail server reboots. Email uses asynchronous protocols.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by wfunction on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:22AM (#13596728)
> "oops, try again later" is not what is happening when your mail server reboots. Email uses asynchronous protocols.

Wha...? How do you think my server receives emails while it's rebooting?

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by metafunctor on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @04:59AM (#13597119)
The sending server will automatically try to deliver the email again for a few days. If the receiving server is occasionally down, there will be a delay, but if it's not down for very long (many days) the email will eventually be delivered.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by the_common_man on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:23AM (#13596731)
self-hosting is generally done on cloud vps providers (like ec2, digital ocean). Also, email is asynchronous. Email has a lot of retry logic built into it. You seriously don't think it behaves you think it does, do you? Imagine the amount of emails dropped :-)
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by wfunction on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:35AM (#13596774)
> Email has a lot of retry logic built into it. You seriously don't think it behaves you think it does, do you? Imagine the amount of emails dropped :-)

Retries on the order of a few minutes, maybe. I think I've very rarely seen maybe a handful of retries, one a day, in certain cases (thanks to mailer-daemon notifications from Gmail). I don't imagine servers keep retrying for days on end beyond that (maybe internet outage was a poor example here though). Am I wrong? How long do retries go on for? Like imagine if you were on a trip when your server crashed. Now you miss emails for two weeks and you imagine that when you reboot it after coming back the senders will keep retrying? Is that really how it works? And if it does, would you really want to have that level of availability? You never have to worry about that kind of thing with a service provider, but as soon as you maintain your own server you have to constantly monitor it and be able to fix it ASAP.

Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by scalaris373 on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @04:03AM (#13596888)
I have been self-hosting my email for a few years now. (I use Zimbra BTW) Whenever the server goes down for whatever reason, the sending SMTP will retry. Each server has their own configuration, and can be changed by the adminsitrator, but it's usually a few days. As an example, on their default configurations, Exim will retry every 24h, and give up after a week. IIS will retry every 2 hours and give up after 2 days.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by bigbugbag on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:15AM (#13596705)
nobody says you have to self-host on your personal pc using your home connection.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by wfunction on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:21AM (#13596726)
I thought that was the point, since you didn't trust other people not to be mining your data? If it's another person's machine then they could just read your emails...
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by the_common_man on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @03:30AM (#13596757)
No, you self-host because you retain the ownership and control of your data. You choose service providers whose main business is not to snoop your data. For example, if you choose a server from amazon ec2 or linode or your local vps provider, they are not going to snoop your data because they are in the business of selling servers and not mining all your servers.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by wfunction on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @05:11AM (#13597158)
Okay, different question: any reason to believe the government isn't making them share dumps of their servers behind your back? I thought paranoia about the government reading your emails was the other huge reason to want this sort of thing in the first place.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by Outpox on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @07:10AM (#13597642)
If you're that worried then you can encrypt your server or data folder if needed.
Re:Privacy is Power: Why the fight for privacy matters by wfunction on Wednesday February 08, 2017 @07:16AM (#13597675)
What's the point though? Wouldn't the key need to be on the server if I encrypt it? Otherwise how can my mail server even work?