News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by animex on Saturday February 04, 2017 @06:28PM (#13569732)
In addition, the article fails to mention the Empty Home tax implemented by the city. Homes that sit empty (for speculation or other reasons) are taxed 1% per year. This was done to increase the vacancy rate and encourage owners to put all this property sitting idle back onto the market. AND: Collected Empty Home Tax will be reinvested into affordable housing initiatives.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by obstinate on Saturday February 04, 2017 @06:36PM (#13569759)
Overall I think these ideas are super interesting and may be good in the long run. But I'm also curious about what the unintended consequences will end up being.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by aorloff on Saturday February 04, 2017 @06:52PM (#13569836)
I would imagine that one unintended consequence is that very few homes (read: zero) actually sit empty for a whole year. In fact, I would imagine there's a local property manager right now offering to rent your house out with "very light use" for exactly 31 days every 6 months while offering "maintenance services."
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by kgwgk on Sunday February 05, 2017 @04:30AM (#13571609)
I think the idea is that it cannot be empty more than six month out of twelve, not that ot cannot be empty more than six months in a row.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by krrrh on Saturday February 04, 2017 @10:42PM (#13570717)
Check out this proposal for a surtax which more targets the issue from a different direction, with a more simple implementation than foreign buyer or vacancy taxes.

> One example is the Immigrant Investor program, where those wishing to immigrate would make an interest-free loan to government of $400,000 in exchange for landed immigrant status. UBC geographer David Ley has shown that investor immigrants in the Vancouver region represent nearly 10 per cent of the Vancouver region’s population. That population paid, on average, $1,400 in income tax 10 years after immigrating. This is less than refugees. > … > A property surtax is an elegant and legally safer way to reduce foreign capital flows into Canada’s cities than the new foreign buyer’s tax. A one per cent surtax would work like this: if you own a $1 million house, you will receive a surtax bill for $10,000. If you have already paid equivalent income tax, are on a disability pension, or if you are a retiree on CPP, the tax is a full deduction—you’ve already paid, thanks.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/a-roadmap-fo...

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by geoka9 on Saturday February 04, 2017 @10:56PM (#13570771)
> That population paid, on average, $1,400 in income tax 10 years after immigrating.

How's that possible - do they all become non-resident after receiving their passports?

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by krrrh on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:03AM (#13570964)
They don't report their global income. There's a term in the Chinese investor immigrant community: "astronaut dads". Kids get Canadian citizenship and a good education, dad might keep working in asia, or may have made enough. During the 5 year immigration process (and also after receiving citizenship) people are supposed to report worldwide income, but the Canadian government has very limited resources and capability to investigate.

The interest-free loan of $400,000 to the Canadian government was also a weak test for 'investors'. The Canadian banks would front the money on behalf of the immigrant, if they prepay the interest on the loan. I was told by a banker that this was at a pretty high rate of around $120,000. This amounted to paying $120k to a bank in exchange for a clean citizenship path. Lots of people benefited from this system (banks, property owners, developers) so it went on for a long time. Ottawa ended the program in 2013, but one of the problems is that Québec hasn't--they control their own immigration policy to an extent. So it became common for investor immigrants to apply to Québec but then move to Vancouver.[1] In theory, immigrants that bring a lot of wealth with them sounds great, but I was also shocked by the stat showing that they paid less taxes than refugees after 10 years.

[1] Quick reference:

http://www.news1130.com/2015/04/01/investor-immigrants-using...

> “Quebec gets the benefits from that loan, which lasts for five years. It’s a very lucrative program as far as Quebec is concerned but the downside is that the people don’t actually end up living there. There’s plenty of data that shows 90 per cent of those arrivals actually end up living elsewhere. I think it’s fair to estimate that a large majority end up living in Vancouver.”

TL;DR People who try to launder money and escape capital controls in China have a high overlap with people who cheat on their taxes in Canada.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by mhkhung on Saturday February 04, 2017 @11:59PM (#13570945)
Vancouver is a retirement haven.. 10 years they all retired. Those needing to work go to Toronto.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by geoka9 on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:05AM (#13570973)
Wealthy investors without any capital gains?
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by Kluny on Saturday February 04, 2017 @11:48PM (#13570918)
Capital gains tax in Canada is ludicrously low, also the richer you are the more tax loopholes you can afford to find out about.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:16AM (#13572065)
Keep in mind if you get capital gains you pay tax twice to both governments. You make it sound like it is a huge deal but factor in the increased accounting costs and in most cases the advantage isn't that great at all.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by geoka9 on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:09AM (#13570988)
I wouldn't say it's ludicrously low - it's still half of income tax, which itself can be pretty high for people who make a lot.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by KKKKkkkk1 on Saturday February 04, 2017 @07:10PM (#13569923)
Until I see actual statistics about empty houses, I consider this policy as a useful empty gesture. It's an opportunity for politicians to pretend that they are doing something about housing prices, while avoiding actually doing anything, and hence avoiding the unintended consequences.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jchrisa on Saturday February 04, 2017 @09:10PM (#13570400)
If I did the math right, there are 50 empty dwellings in England for every person sleeping on the streets. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/27/squatters-op...
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by omegaham on Saturday February 04, 2017 @11:07PM (#13570802)
The article looks at one empty building in London, but how many dwellings are in decent areas versus shitholes / the middle of nowhere? I doubt that all of them are Russian oligarch money havens.

We can play similar games in the US with abandoned houses - there are probably enough abandoned homes in Gary, Indiana to house the entire US' homeless population. Said homes, unfortunately, happen to be in Gary.

I don't know enough about England towns and cities to make a judgment, but it looks like The Guardian got their data from here: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tab...

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by Tiktaalik on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:38PM (#13570259)
There have been a number of studies using a variety of methodologies.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vancouv...

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by ptero on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:15PM (#13570173)
I agree the ideas are interesting, but I wonder how easy it is to detect that the house is empty (and who has the burden of proof). Unless there are some pretty draconian / invasive inspections I wonder if the law has any teeth. Not a criticism of the root comment, just curious.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by awqrre on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:23PM (#13570200)
Looking at the power consumption should be enough in most cases unless they generate their own electricity which should also be easy to figure out... from my home I can wirelessly read the power meters of about 30 of my neighbors (updated every 1 to 5 minutes) using a cheap rtl-sdr and a raspberry-pi (I probably could do better if I placed the antenna outside of my house or if I optimized the antenna for the frequency)
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by branchless on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:59PM (#13570354)
Stop dancing on the head of a pin!

Land value tax. No income tax. People who add no value get nothing.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by krrrh on Saturday February 04, 2017 @10:43PM (#13570722)
Or a land value surtax which you don't have to pay if you are already paying income taxes or retired.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/a-roadmap-fo...

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by MarkMc on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:39PM (#13570265)
Then I can avoid the tax by using a timer device to switch the lights on and off
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by stale2002 on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:56PM (#13570342)
You can also shoplift and almost certainly get away with it.

Most people won't go through the trouble though.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by nickff on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:58PM (#13570350)
You wouldn't pay a small power bill and buy a timer to save >$10000/yr?
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by stale2002 on Saturday February 04, 2017 @10:17PM (#13570628)
Maybe it would work and maybe it wouldn't. And if they catch you, then they will multiply the fine.

What I'd do is just rent out the room, and not pay the fee.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by awqrre on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:47PM (#13570303)
You probably should use a somewhat random timer and include some heating and cooling too...but yeah it probably could be tricked fairly easily.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by beambot on Saturday February 04, 2017 @06:48PM (#13569819)
Care to speculate? Besides, if there are unintended consequences, the laws can be changed...
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by tikhonj on Saturday February 04, 2017 @06:51PM (#13569829)
Tax laws are hard to change. Prop 13 sure had unintended consequences...
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by obstinate on Saturday February 04, 2017 @06:53PM (#13569843)
Hrm . . . I guess I'm struggling to think of a good reason to keep a house empty for a year. Presumably there is a remodeling exception . . .

The only thing I can really think of is that it might force people to divest in a very down market where it is difficult to find renters, but it doesn't seem like a huge tragedy for people who have at least two dwellings to be forced to sell one of them or else eat losses.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by mappu on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:11PM (#13570150)
Leaving the property empty can be worthwhile if you make more from the capital-gains than you would from {rental income, minus repairing problems caused by the tenants, minus maintenance, minus property management fees, minus income tax}.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by s0rce on Sunday February 05, 2017 @01:43AM (#13571268)
Don't you make the same gains on the property regardless of if its rented or not? You might not need the money from renting it but its still going to be more money above the gains from appreciation...
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by aianus on Sunday February 05, 2017 @03:52AM (#13571528)
You can't time the market and sell the house if there's a tenant living in it. (I'm guessing that's the thought process)
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by adrienne on Saturday February 04, 2017 @08:53PM (#13570331)
Yes but the whole point is that that's only "worthwhile" for you, and it contributes to fucking everyone else in the housing market over.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by Buge on Sunday February 05, 2017 @02:39AM (#13571380)
I assume you mean decrease the vacancy rate.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:14AM (#13572055)
No they mean increase. Rents are high and it is causing problems for retail workers who have to commute 2h to get to work because of living costs in the city.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jrs235 on Sunday February 05, 2017 @02:01PM (#13573894)
If you tax vacancy then you're discouraging vacancy which would encourage non-vacancy (decreasing vacancies). The Empty Home (Vacancy) tax is to encourage owners to either sell their vacant property (which would increase supply and lower prices) or lower rents on their vacant properties to find tenants and fill their home. The goal is to decrease vacant (empty) homes and lower housing costs for people that desire to live there.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by correnos on Sunday February 05, 2017 @04:33PM (#13574769)
I think by "vacancies" they mean "vacant homes on the market", versus "vacant homes the owner is sitting on." A tax would encourage vacant homes to be put on the market.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by joelthelion on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:06AM (#13572022)
How do they enforce it?
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:10AM (#13572043)
One of the proposals was to look at energy use. Which is sorta absurd for "green" Vancouver to encourage cheats to waste energy on things to make the empty home look active. Not sure if that is what actually got implemented though.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by Kluny on Saturday February 04, 2017 @11:46PM (#13570913)
Wildly insufficient. As a local, I'd vote that foreigners shouldn't be allowed to buy property here at all - not residential, not speculative, not vacation homes, nothing. 1% tax is slightly better than nothing, I guess.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jimmywanger on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:22AM (#13571029)
> As a local, I'd vote that foreigners shouldn't be allowed to buy property here at all

Define "local" and "foreigner". Does local mean you grew up in vancouver, or moved there a while ago, or your family spent three generations there already?

In addition, define foreigner. Anywhere else in British Columbia considered "foreign"? What about from Ottowa?

If you mean that you want to punish behaviour, such as buying houses and properties you don't live in or use, that's one thing. Discrimination based on locality sounds an awful lot like Jim Crow laws.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by true_religion on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:33AM (#13571060)
I think he means foreigner as in a non-permanent resident.

It isn't unheard of. In SE Asia (the Phillipines for example), all properties must have 50%+ occupancy by permanent residents.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jimmywanger on Sunday February 05, 2017 @01:52AM (#13571290)
> In SE Asia (the Phillipines for example), all properties must have 50%+ occupancy by permanent residents.

I think that's an overly wide generalization. For instance, in Thailand, I don't think you're allowed to own land or houses, just a condo. In Laos, you can't own land at all.

The situation is much the same in much of Latin America.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by toyg on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:24AM (#13572102)
Not exactly rich countries.

Let's face it, capital coming into the country to buy property is a Good Thing from an economic perspective. You "just" have to make sure this capital rewards low-income people as much as property owners. This tax is one way to do that, which I think is very good.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by cm2187 on Sunday February 05, 2017 @04:57AM (#13571663)
Switzerland also has strict restrictions on foreigners and non residents buying properties.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by ianai on Sunday February 05, 2017 @02:27AM (#13571355)
I think asking someone to live in a home they own 6 months a year in the same city as their property(ies) satisfies 'fairness'. It's important to allow people to live their lives, but over speculation hurts many people to a much larger extent.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jcoffland on Sunday February 05, 2017 @03:48AM (#13571518)
You had me right up to Jim Crow laws. That is a bit hyperbolic and an inappropriate comparison, IMO.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jimmywanger on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:50PM (#13573505)
"Foreign real estate investor" in Vancouver is a thinly veiled euphemism for "Chinese and Russian money."

When you're passing a law that disproportionately affects certain ethnic groups, that particular comparison is apt.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by toomuchtodo on Sunday February 05, 2017 @01:32PM (#13573710)
Most of the Russian and Chinese money is being laundered out of their respective countries.

Your ethnicity isn't being discrimated against, just your country's economics circumstances. No reason to bring the SJWing into an economic argument.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jimmywanger on Sunday February 05, 2017 @05:23PM (#13575034)
>Your ethnicity isn't being discrimated against, just your country's economics circumstances.

Restricting people, no matter their ethnicities, based on their country's circumstances is generally frowned upon. Especially when it only affects citizens of a few countries. "Well, this law only applies to <action> Too bad only people from these countries perform these <actions>"

Besides, your claim that the money is being laundered is highly speculative and unproven. That's the definition of painting with a wide brush - because most money is suspect, you cut off access to all of it?

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by toomuchtodo on Sunday February 05, 2017 @06:25PM (#13575356)
Both local governments and popular opinion in those regions differ from your opinion, although you are still entitled to that opinion.

Local residents and voters have the right to keep others out if their laws allow for it. Outsiders/non-citizens don't get a vote.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by zzalpha on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:35PM (#13575642)
Wut?

This is fundamentally a monetary and trade policy issue.

Are you claiming that, for example, tarriffs on Chinese dumped imports are also equivalent to racially targeted laws?

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:12AM (#13572050)
Likewise
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:12AM (#13572047)
Canada didn't have Jim Crow laws, wrong country.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jimmywanger on Sunday February 05, 2017 @12:55PM (#13573525)
http://startouch.thestar.com/screens/003e50ae-8fe5-4e1f-be7e...

Your simplistic views of history do not explain reality. Just because they weren't called Jim Crow laws doesn't mean that similar laws didn't exist.

Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:25AM (#13577890)
I didn't say similar things didn't exist in Canada, I said "Jim Crow" didn't exist in Canada because that was the subject of the comment I was replying to. Thanks for the scolding though.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by Kluny on Sunday February 05, 2017 @03:35AM (#13571486)
Local (in my case) means born in Vancouver and raised in bc. Foreigner means not a Canadian citizen. I don't think anyone who isn't a Canadian citizen should be allowed to buy Canadian property.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by jimmywanger on Sunday February 05, 2017 @05:25PM (#13575047)
You still have not given reasons why you think that people who aren't Canadian citizens should be allowed to buy Canadian property, or that the fact that you're a "local" by some definition of the word gives you some sort of special insight or moral authority on the matter.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by msie on Sunday February 05, 2017 @04:56AM (#13571660)
Only 15% of purchases were made by foreigners. 85% were made by Canadians. How about places in Alberta when the oil business was booming? Prices were driven up by Canadians, not foreigners. Everyone wants to solely blame foreigners when there were other issues like geography, low-interest mortgages, Vancouver being the only major city on the Canadian west coast, etc. What about foreigners coming here to work and plant roots?
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by tehlike on Sunday February 05, 2017 @03:12AM (#13571445)
As a local, you probably are more interested in keeping your networth, at least that's what most people want. I am not sure if they would necessarily want their home prices go down.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by smsm42 on Sunday February 05, 2017 @03:39PM (#13574497)
Or for that matter occupy any property. Because if they rent, that drives rental prices up, which means it's more profitable to buy for renting out, which drives prices up. I think the best solution would be to not let any of those pesky foreigners with their evil money into the country at all. Surely the prices will go down then. May be the economy too, but worth it, no?
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by Zach_the_Lizard on Sunday February 05, 2017 @08:52AM (#13572408)
What you want is a land value tax that would punish speculation, foreign and home grown. Bonus: it encourages building more housing, unlike standard property taxes.
Re:Vancouver house prices are falling by wattt on Sunday February 05, 2017 @07:11AM (#13572045)
So you want Vancouver to be a Prince Edward Island!