Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by FooBarWidget on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:03PM
(#13535202)
It says the cost of the project needs to drop by half not the cost of the batteries. It could be that the cost of batteries is only a small amount of the overall cost. That is what you see with solar, most of the cost comes from installation.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by stcredzero on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:06PM
(#13535223)
the cost of the project needs to drop by half not the cost of the batteries
Manufacture larger self-contained units the size of a standard shipping container?
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by briffle on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:08PM
(#13535245)
that would be awesome, but would be one heavy shipping container..
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by tw04 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:12PM
(#13535278)
Well, given we ship around semi-trucks full (ok not completely full due to the exact weight you describe) of lead-acid car batteries for recycling, it wouldn't be unthinkable. Li-on, I believe, is roughly 200% lighter for the same battery.
IE: http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-...
Not sure how that carries over to larger batteries as I've only really dealt with them for ATV type use.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by Rhinobird on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:49PM
(#13535571)
Is 200% lighter half as heavy, or is it buoyant? Cause 100% lighter is weightless. So 200% would be a negative weight. I am just confused.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by andlier on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:10PM
(#13535771)
You are correct, the link to powertechsystems.eu has those erroneous percentage calculations.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by Symmetry on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:02PM
(#13535683)
The back of my envelope says that a shipping container full of Li-on batteries would weight 192.5 tons at 2.5 kg/L compared to the maximum standard load of 30.5 tons. So it would have to be mostly empty. I don't think that makes it infeasible, though.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by andlier on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:36PM
(#13535480)
40kg for lead acid equals 13.6kg for lithium so that's 66% lighter.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by stcredzero on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:06PM
(#13537157)
Make it a 10ft shipping container. (1/4th size) That should be good for a full standard load of around 30 tons, with some empty space for equipment access. Maybe redox flow batteries will win for the grid scale use case, because it could become feasible to process the solution in-situ and save a bunch of shipping weight.
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by revelation on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @04:06PM
(#13535224)
If it's just 50% away from profitability with the ridiculously cheap cost of electricity in California and the US in general, it will do just fine for vast swaths of the developed world.
Not to mention that the edge of profitability probably isn't so much determined by the consumer price of electricity, but the sources that feed a countries grid. Lots of renewables with huge output swings (Germany) versus full nuclear (France).
Re:Tesla – Lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid
by Symmetry on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:04PM
(#13535706)
A big factor in profitability is normal swing in grid price which is going to tend to be pretty pretty big in California with it's high baseline energy prices and extensive use of renewables which come on and off line according to their own schedules.
"...prices for lithium-ion batteries have fallen fast — by almost half just since 2014." "But for the most part, according to a BNEF analysis, the costs of new projects would need to drop by half in order to be profitable on a wider scale in California, and that’s not likely to happen for another decade."
The prices for the batteries dropped by half in 2 years, but it will take a decade for them to drop by the same amount again? What am I missing here?
Also the chart seems to indicate the cost was $273/kWh to build a plant in 2016, but then they say "While Tesla declined to provide its pricing data, the similarly sized Altagas project was expected to cost at least $40 million, or $500 per kilowatt hour." I guess the costs unrelated to the battery cells themselves added another ~$230/kWh in costs?