News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:08AM (#13530174)
This is a good but flawed move.

In very high COL places like NYC and SFBA $130k is barely a living wage unless you can put up with a 2h commute.

OTOH, in low COL markets (eg. KC) this eliminates H1-Bs from consideration for most entry-level positions.

For many markets in the middle (an example doesn't come to mind, perhaps Los Angeles?) where $130k+ is a decent salary for an entry-level position this new minimum works.

What's really needed to make H1-B work on a national scale for a broad range of professions while still limiting abuse is something like a COL adjustment, or scaling the minimum with some formula like 75% of the median salary, or the 30th percentile, or something similar.

Edited to add: I am assuming that no more than 30% of your salary is spent on rent, you save 10% of your salary, that you are working in downtown San Francisco, that your commute is under 30m door to door via public transportation, and you live in a 2-bedroom apartment.

Also: https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-living-i...

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by matwood on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:19AM (#13530251)
> OTOH, in low COL markets (eg. KC) this eliminates H1-Bs from consideration for most entry-level positions.

Isn't that the point? I thought H1-Bs were supposed to only be used when the skill set required could not be found locally. This does not match up with entry-level positions unless there are no programmers in the area.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:29AM (#13530780)
Well, do you want the price to reflect the wage of an average entry-level employee, or that of a talented one?

I'm not sure the US should have as a goal keeping every foreign grad here.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by matwood on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @12:22PM (#13532769)
What I want is to fix immigration so that people can move to the US, become citizens, and stay. The goal should be to not even need the H1-B program.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by lukeschlather on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:21AM (#13531239)
That sentiment - we don't need to keep every foreign grad - is basically stack ranking applied by the government instead of big business.

Put another way, the government is basically forcing companies to adopt stack ranking for certain classes of employees.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:37AM (#13532133)
I'm not sure that the comparison to stack ranking is apt, I am not saying we only want x% of grads, but I think it is reasonable to say that the US wants to bring in people in high demand as evidenced by their salary.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by zeroxfe on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:24AM (#13531270)
Speaking as a New Yorker, $130k is not "barely a living wage", unless you have a really distorted definition of "living."

You do not need to commute 2h for reasonable housing -- I lived in Brooklyn (which, for me, was a very comfortable 25m door-to-door commute), and was very happy there.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @12:26PM (#13532824)
You're right, I shouldsn't have lumped NYC (in all of it's five borroughs) in with SF.

NYC actually has neighborhoods that are affordable, often only a few blocks away from expensive ones.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by princetontiger on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:33AM (#13531370)
$130K is not barely livable.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:34AM (#13532082)
Keep in mind that $130k is also total comp. including bonuses that you are elegible for, but might not actually get, and even if you do, might not be in a form actually worth the face value.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by bzbarsky on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @01:44PM (#13533773)
> including bonuses that you are elegible for, but might not actually get

This does not seem to be true. https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62Q... says:

  Cash bonuses and similar compensation may be counted
  or credited toward the $60,000 only if payment is
  assured.
and it's not clear to me that the proposed updates change anything about that other than the numeric value.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by toephu2 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @12:42PM (#13533021)
"SFBA $130k is barely a living wage unless you can put up with a 2h commute." Goto craigslist, look for single bedroom in a house or apartment. You can easily find a place for < $1700/mo not in the ghetto. People like you (and the media) always like to blow things out of proportion (sensationalism) but never actually look at any real data.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by cobookman on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:34AM (#13531379)
I lived in sf for < 130k a year at one point in my career. The majority of employee's in the energy sector / startups in the bay area also are making < 130k / year
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by thr1234567 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:12AM (#13530208)
> NYC and SFBA $130k

Really ? Surely it can't be that expensive ?

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by eva1984 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:28AM (#13530773)
It is not. I am lost of what 'barely living' here means.

130k is totally decent, however it is also not rare. For entry level job to big companies/good startups, the market price is between 110k-120k, and it usually takes 2 years or so to bump up your salary to 130k level(one raise is good enough), assuming you are a reasonable(above average but maybe not excellent) engineer.

So, no, I completely disagree with this 'barely living salary' bullshit, it makes us software engineers look like spoiled ungrateful whiny babies. Not GOOD!

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:35AM (#13530833)
shrug

I may be out of touch, or perhaps everyone else has adjusted their expectations downward to account for how expensive everything is, or think that long commutes are normal.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood today.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by eva1984 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:41AM (#13530884)
I kinda of figure what you mean by 'barely-living', is actually worry free living style(good housing, close to workplace, go to decent places for dining/partying) in SF/NYC. And yes, 130k may knock the door for that standard, but not quite there.

But saying 130k is 'barely-living', if not bad wording, is close to insulting, and helps little in the conversation.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:19AM (#13531226)
Is keeping your commute under 30m considered "close"?

Anyway, swap out dining/partying for cooking good food at home, add in rainy-day/retirement savings as well as saving for kid's college (even if you don't have kids yet). So, you know, you're actually following standard financial advice.

I mean, sure you can sacrifice quite a bit (don't save, eat crap, waste your time commuting, live in a shoebox) to get by on less, but at some financial point you (and your family) will just be treading water over the long term at best in order to work in SF/NYC. Especially considering that $130k is total compensation (ie. including bonuses that you might not even get, or in a form that is actually worth the face value).

TL/DR: COL in SF is bonkers.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by refurb on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:04AM (#13530576)
I think it's a combination of hyperbole and being out of touch.

$130K is not "barely a living wage". It's a very good salary in the Bay Area and 1.5 times the average wage in SF.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:13AM (#13530638)
OK, it is a bit exagerated, but try living on $130k in SF (as opposed to, say, East Palo Alto), paying off student loans, saving a bit, etc.

$130k is a very good salary if you moved to SF a couple of decades ago and bought a house then.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by elastic_church on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @01:18PM (#13533462)
H1B holders don't have student loans

argument fails. you can rent, max out your 401k, and enjoy all the frivolousness you want on a 130k salary. downpayment? yeah not gonna happen. better off than 95% of the population? immediately gonna happen.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by refurb on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:03AM (#13531666)
I don't get this perspective.

SF is one of the most expensive cities in the US. The very fact you live there means you're well off. People with the mean (or median) US wage, couldn't even fathom living within the city limits.

It's kind of like someone who lives in Beverley Hills saying "I make $500K per year, but I'm only middle class since I can't afford an average home in Beverley Hills". Well no shit, the homes there are tens of millions of dollars.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:59AM (#13532458)
OK, I'm going to try and keep this simple, rather than a rant.

Big expensive cities (like NYC) usually have inexpensive areas inside them. SF basically has the Tenderloin, and rents there are still nuts.

Edited to add: BTW, aside from the fact that Beverly Hills has less expensive neighborhoods within city limits (south of Wilshire? I forget) there are other even less expensive areas practically next door (just go downhill to where nobody has a view).

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:46AM (#13530927)
Oh, and comparing to the average probably isn't what you want to use to make your argument, you probably want to compare to the median.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by thansharp on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:07AM (#13531103)
The median would definitely be lower. I'd wager money on this. The mean is skewed upwards thanks to executives earning USD 1 million+ . The median would just treat these people as being above the 50th percentile.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:21AM (#13531240)
Of course the median would be lower. That's why I said that it is the figure you should be using to better make your argument.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by aianus on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:28AM (#13530322)
It's not. Maybe he's assuming a stay at home wife and/or children which would be a stretch on $130k, it's true.

You can live well and have savings as a single guy on $130k in both those areas.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by thr1234567 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:41AM (#13530393)
How do the non-tech denizens manage ? I thought waitresses (and people in similar low-skilled jobs) barely made $30k ?
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by j_r_f on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:49AM (#13530446)
Yeah 130k being barely a living wage is an absurd thing to say. Tons and tons of people in NYC do not make 130k — even half of it would be a great salary for most — and they seem to still be living just fine.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:20AM (#13530698)
Well, to me, a living wage isn't just living just fine, but actually managing to get ahead, at least generationaly.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by scaryclam on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @01:36PM (#13533671)
"living just fine" is pretty much the definition of living wage. Having extra is having more than living wage. Having enough to get ahead is earning a really nice wage.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:24AM (#13530726)
> How do the non-tech denizens manage ?

Co-habitation (2+ people per Bedroom), long commutes, and no savings.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by gregw2 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:04AM (#13531679)
Yes, this is an issue. On h1b your (non-citizen) wife cant legally work without getting her own working h1b or other visa which can be tricky.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by foldr on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:31AM (#13532040)
I thought that this changed recently? It's now, at least theoretically, quite easy for spouses of H1B visa holders to apply for permission to work.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by mavelikara on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:36PM (#13536003)
Spouses of certain H-1B holder - those you are in the green card backlog - can get work permit. This is typically called H4EAD. Here is the relevant notice from USCIS: https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...

This provision came into existence in 2015. There are rumors that Trump administration might rescind this provision.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by gregw2 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @12:31PM (#13532890)
Could be. My coworker's experience with that was a while back.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:18AM (#13530682)
Yeah, I am assuming kids aren't being deferred until someone is in their 30s.

I am also assuming you want to live in something larger than a matchbox, and don't want a commute over 30m.

Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by adrianm on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:09AM (#13530619)
This is complete hyperbole. $130k is considered a good salary in NYC.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:32AM (#13531345)
Again, mostly due to eroded expectations over several decades.
Re:New H1-B Visa bill doubles the salary requirements to $13... by webmaven on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:05AM (#13530586)
Well, I may be exagerating the 2h commute part, but RE prices in SF (and therefore rents) are completely ridiculous at this point, and East Bay places near any BART (light rail) station are too. Sharing an apartment doesn't help much since the sharing seems to be built into the price of apartments with more rooms.

Taxes in CA are a bit higher than elsewhere in the US as well, but at least there you're getting a halfway decent safety net. Rents are high only due to the suppression of the housing supply.