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Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by mtgx on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:19PM (#13453222)
The fact that mostly corporations were invited to the negotiations and not the civil society probably didn't help that whole "communication issue" either.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by Natsu on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:23PM (#13453241)
Yeah, I think it's a bit more than a communications issue when they secretly negotiated a treaty that planned to take away the rights of everyone online to give a few media giants even more control over what people can say online.

The EFF has a long list of reasons to oppose it here: https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by niftich on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:55PM (#13453339)
You're not wrong, but you're proving my point. I've said before [1] that "TPP [is] the largest cross-national, non-military cooperation pact of our time. It's a huge power play with serious geopolitical consequences", a perspective that likely echoes that of US allies [2] and yet the conversation in the tech sphere focused solely on IP.

This is a good fight -- one I applaud and support the EFF for pursuing relentlessly -- but this is just one issue in a gigantic compromise legislation that has to attain broad legislative support inside the US [3][4] as well as support from the other signatories, of which there are many.

It was in fact a failure of messaging to not get out ahead of, or in response to these vocal oppositions, as the public's ire was allowed to foment.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11893512#11894446 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/world/asia/trans-pacific-... [3] http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/trade-trans-pacific-pa... [4] http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/293344-mcconnel...

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by goodplay on Saturday January 21, 2017 @11:31PM (#13453587)
Then they shouldn't have grouped the orthogonal issues together in an all-or-nothing affair.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by Ericson2314 on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:55PM (#13453503)
My understanding is that the other countries were not pushing to adopt our IP policies (though Japan did), so construing that point as compromise is a bit disingenuous.

I think that, with the exception of environmental policy on the part of the poorer counties, I'd prefer the other countries' notiations. (Other than IP I have no evidence though, as others have said it's hard to come by.)

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by Natsu on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:59PM (#13453511)
I do not see it as a communication problem because there's nothing they could tell me that would make me support those IP provisions.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by 3131s on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:49PM (#13453321)
> I think it's a bit more than a communications issue when they secretly negotiated a treaty

Sure, but at least they made this cartoon to help the plebs see the light:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNfLixcJO4

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by chiaro on Sunday January 22, 2017 @02:17AM (#13454101)
The EFF was actually invited to negotiate the treaty too, but they refused, opting to instead throw stones from the dark.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by dba7dba on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:42PM (#13453294)
EFF and Trump admin on same page on something? What is going on?
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by colordrops on Saturday January 21, 2017 @11:06PM (#13453539)
You are only now just seeing that Trump agreeing with something doesn't make it bad by default? It's not Good vs Evil here. Reality is more nuanced. Glen Greenwald, Edward Snowden, and Julian Assange also espouse certain views that match those of Trump, even though they all despise the man. It's not like Trump just went down a check list and picked the "evil" option for every issue. And the left, such as Hillary, didn't go down the list and choose the "good" option for every issue. Both sides have issues for which they have horrible self-serving stances that the other side opposes, and thus you will find people you look up to often agreeing with your "enemy".
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by kobeya on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:48PM (#13453316)
Your preconceptions are collapsing.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by ddw on Sunday January 22, 2017 @03:54AM (#13454332)
Well I'm pretty sure that they are against it for different reasons. Government surveillance is something that a paranoid, insecure person like Trump is going to love.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by candiodari on Sunday January 22, 2017 @08:04AM (#13455000)
Sadly that seems to be a very bipartisan attitude:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_on_mass_surveilla...

Actually, one might have some (small) hope that Trump is actually libertarian enough to tone the surveillance state down. Not hoping for much though.

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by dba7dba on Sunday January 22, 2017 @07:31AM (#13454897)
No one can detect a joke when it involves Trump...
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by ajross on Saturday January 21, 2017 @09:52PM (#13453332)
Do you have an example of a trade agreement that wasn't negotiated "in secret" and which involved "civil society".

Treaties, free trade treaties foremost among them, are almost never public before the final text is available, because if they were they'd never get that far. Too many interests.

Look, it's a free trade agreement. It says, basically, "no tariffs at all for trade between the signatories". Except of course that every signatory has a list of a thousand "but..." clauses to protect whatever proprietary interests have their ear. So the end results is a big mess of exceptions and clarifications, which is why everyone hates it. There is literally something in there in there that everyone will hate! By design!

I mean, look: it's hardly the most important bill of the decade, and I'm not crying that it failed. But to pretend that this was some collusion of the global illuminati to stick it to the hippies, or white nationalists, or whoever you happen to identify with is just insane.

It's a ?!@#!$ trade treaty, for god's sake.

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by jordanb on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:16PM (#13453408)
The fact that most trade agreements are negotiated in secret by special interests doesn't make it right.

The TPP was full of provisions that would have made profits higher for corporations and very little that would genuinely protect workers and the environment. This is understandable given that most the voices in the room were representing corporations.

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by knowaveragejoe on Saturday January 21, 2017 @11:11PM (#13453549)
Were it totally open you'd see something analogous to NIMBYism, would you not?
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by themusicgod1 on Saturday January 21, 2017 @11:52PM (#13453639)
"Were countries not ruled by kings we'd be arguing back and forth on the triviality of legislation. We need to make sure that there's one strong voice that is capable of deciding everything"
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by Analemma_ on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:30PM (#13453443)
> if they were they'd never get that far. Too many interests.

"That's a feature, not a bug. Whence this argument that trade negotiations are somehow different from every single other aspect of good governance? For all other mechanisms of government, everyone agrees that transparency is a vital mechanism for preventing corruption, and that whatever inefficiencies it introduces into the system are a necessary evil. Yet somehow free trade agreements operate on a different set of rules; even though time after time it's been shown that this invites boatloads of the exact corruption that government transparency is meant to combat."

(This argument gets trotted out with such reliability in TPP threads that I can just copy-paste my response from a previous one)

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by jimbokun on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:58PM (#13453506)
There have been serious arguments made that too much transparency is crippling the US government's ability to function.

Used to be a lot more compromises made in private, to come up with trade offs both sides could live with but the partisan core supporters would shoot down immediately if they knew. Which leads to our current government, where compromise with the other side of any kind is political suicide.

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by AnthonyMouse on Sunday January 22, 2017 @12:37AM (#13453785)
The partisanship in the US traces primarily to the voting system. Replace it with something like range voting or approval voting and you would have twelve parties instead of two, at which point passing anything would require a coalition government and cooperation with other parties would be a mandatory prerequisite for government action.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by sixothree on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:48AM (#13454005)
I feel like we can trace the hyper-partisanship in America directly to the rise of Fox News.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by PhantomGremlin on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:12AM (#13453880)
passing anything would require a coalition government

Yeah, because "coalition governments" have worked so well in countries like Italy. Have they hit the 100 mark yet for number of "coalition governments" formed since WWII?

And the Liberal Democrats made out really well in the "coalition government" that was formed in the UK after the 2010 elections. They went from 57 MPs after 2010 to 8 MPs after 2015. Even Charlie Sheen wouldn't call that "winning".

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by Ericson2314 on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:59PM (#13453510)
There's a lot of anti-transparency arguments coming from a mainstream, "woe, the lost bipartisanship", outlook. I'm not sure whether to think this is a nuanced look at tradeoffs or a sickening slippery slope.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by arca_vorago on Sunday January 22, 2017 @12:32AM (#13453770)
"But to pretend that this was some collusion of the global illuminati to stick it to the hippies, or white nationalists, or whoever you happen to identify with is just insane."

This is a complete strawman argument, and lacks rational coherence.

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by ggame on Sunday January 22, 2017 @12:47AM (#13453810)
An aside; I recently found out about the Nipster movement, Nazi Hipsters. Be afraid be very afraid
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by ajross on Sunday January 22, 2017 @09:27AM (#13455287)
You literally snipped the joke out of the middle of the rationally coherent text to argue against it in isolation. Seriously, who's strawmaning here?
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by jessaustin on Sunday January 22, 2017 @10:15AM (#13455454)
Jokes are funny.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by Gargoyle on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:15PM (#13453406)
The fact that it's always been done that way is not a sufficient excuse.
Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by digler999 on Saturday January 21, 2017 @11:04PM (#13453533)
> It's a ?!@#!$ trade treaty, for god's sake.

its ramifications would have affected billions of people just as if it were a new civil and criminal law, that's what was so scary about it. Citizens aren't bound to obey international treaties. That's why we have governments.

Re:US Announces Withdrawal from TPP by gech on Saturday January 21, 2017 @10:06PM (#13453384)
Oh i guess no big deal then, can't criticize something that wasn't even made available, for god's sake. Insane